I find it interesting that I received very few comments on my blog entry entitled DID: Think I Lost Time Again and that the comments noted the fact that my husband and son each thought I was yelling at the other in the middle of the night. Since the comments seemed to zero in on that point, I thought I would blog about yelling.
Before therapy, I never yelled. Seriously! I was the world’s biggest doormat. I wouldn’t occur to me to raise my voice to anyone.
Hub and I were married for over 10 years by the time I entered into therapy. Sure, we had disagreements like any other couple, but there was never any yelling involved. For the most part, I just went along with whatever he wanted until it came to issues with infertility and adoption. Hub wasn’t quite sure what to do with me because I was adamant that I wanted to become a mother by whatever (legal) avenue it took. Up until that point, I just went along with whatever he wanted to do. My son was two years old when I entered into therapy, so yelling wasn’t an issue with my son, either.
My homework every week for my therapist (T) was to work on setting boundaries. He wanted me to practice, practice, practice setting boundaries, and that was very hard for me to do. Because I had never had any boundaries in over three decades of life, this was very difficult for me. Setting boundaries happened in baby steps. I am much better about setting boundaries today than I was when I started, but I still find myself having trouble saying no and overextending myself rather than disappoint someone else.
As I healed and got better at setting boundaries, I found that enforcing my boundaries was my biggest problem, especially with family. I could say, “No,” but they wouldn’t hear me. I had taught my family over the years that I would do whatever they wanted, so they didn’t take me seriously when I said no. I would say, “I would rather not,” and then, “I don’t want to,” and then, “No,” and then a firm, “No,” and then a louder, “No,” until I reached the point of yelling, “I SAID I AM NOT GOING TO DO THIS, SO BACK THE F#$% OFF!!!!!” The other person’s response would be, “You don’t have to yell,” to which I would reply loudly, “CLEARLY, I DO!!!!”
Sadly, that dynamic hasn’t changed as much I would like over the years. When I set a boundary, family members (mostly hub and child) simply disregard it as if I never spoke. I will get more firm as I hold my ground, and then after the FIFTH time, I will yell loudly, which seems to be the first time either of them “hear” me. We continue to have the same ending to those conversations: “You don’t have to yell.” “CLEARLY, I DO!!!!”
If anyone has been in this place and has found a more effective way of getting family members to “hear” them when they set boundaries, I would love to hear other strategies. Things have improved with hub … It’s been a long time since I recall raising my voice to him. My child is another story. He has attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and learning disabilities and is also stubborn, so we often have this exchange ending with my having to yell before he “hears” me.
Photo credit: Hekatekris
Blooming Lotus 
You know, I can’t think of any healthy alternatives. I might try ignoring them, to show how difficult it makes it when someone refuses to hear another person, but I wouldn’t recommend it, it seems very kindergarten (the idea comes from years of mirroring my abusers more subtle behaviour back to them to see how little they like it). I suppose yelling does as well somewhat, but it is down to your family that you’re put in that situation so that’s not intended as any kind of judgement. They appear to have more control of the situation as they are acting in that way and you’re having to rack your brains to figure out how to *re*act. Hmmm.
My mom had this problem with my siblings, although not for the reason you did. The thing that worked best for her was when she not only sounded angrier when they didn’t listen to her the first couple of times, she would also give them minor punishments for not listening to her.
Usually she’d start by asking them to do a chore, and then build on the chore if they didn’t listen. One time, she made one of my siblings get her three glasses of filtered water, because that’s how many times she had to ask for one.
After a while, they got better. My youngest sibling is dyslexic like your son, and it still worked. Since he’s ADHD though, maybe you could standardize the penalties to make the system easier to follow. (Like, repeat yourself three times, he has to set the table, five times, no TV.)
I don’t think yelling is a good strategy. Yelling can be abusive.
If your husband ignores you when you set boundaries, unfortunately your son might just copy him. I would suggest withdrawing something from them if they ignore you when you are making a reasonable request. For example, if you say: “Come to the dinner now because lunch is ready” and they ignore you, then I would say: “Ok, I’ve got lunch and you’ve ignored me calling you to table so tomorrow you can make the lunch” (or whatever task you would usually do instead of them). And stand by it. Do not feel bad about doing this, treat yourself kindly whether they get angry or gang up on you etc. Over time, it can change.
By the way, I read the comments on your previous blog to mean that readers were surprised that your husband and son blamed themselves for your yelling instead of realizing it was connected to your past. Are you able to explain to them the bodily release of emotions by yelling in flashbacks/ nightmares has nothing to do with them? I guess this will be more convincing if you are not usually yelling at them by day though 🙂
Hi, A x.
I have learned from experience that hub cannot handle being involved in my healing process, so I leave him out of it.
I don’t want to give the impression that I yell all the time. I don’t. I rarely yell at hub and cannot recall the last time I did. My yelling at my child tends to correlate with what I am dealing with emotionally in my healing process. The calmer I am in general, the calmer I can be in dealing with my child. When my nerves are already stretched thin from healing work, the less able I am to remain calm when my son pushes my buttons.
I have seen abusive yelling, and that’s not me. Those of you who are triggered by yelling due to abusive yelling in childhood might be getting a different impression. I am not in my kid’s face calling him an S.O.B. or anything like that.
– Faith
It really doesn’t sound like you are being abusive. Sounds like you’re just getting louder for people who don’t pay attention. I think that is fine. My mother tormented me with screaming (among most other abusive methods imaginable) and, it’s really sick, but I think she got endorphin rushes from being abusive. Your description not only doesn’t trigger me but makes me think of the difference between raising one’s voice and enjoying dominating someone through fear.
Faith, My foo has mastered the art of selective hearing as well. It’s beyond frustrating! I have found that when communicating with them, the opposite of yelling works best, as my childhood was rife with yelling, and it desensitized everyone to it. When I have to say “no, thank you” to them, I usually say it once as I would to anyone else, and if they are practicing selective hearing and press me again, I will whisper the second time, rather than getting louder. They have to work harder to hear, and it gets their attention more. If they push again, I simply say, “No means no,” and change the subject, get off the phone, or walk away.
In many ways, setting and enforcing boundaries has been the hardest thing I’ve had to learn in healing. I still struggle very much with them, but I’m getting better. I think a huge part of them ignoring you the first time is that they still think they’ll wear you down and get their way. Ending it as quickly as possible helps.
Hi, Pam.
Yes, this is exactly the issue:
“I think a huge part of them ignoring you the first time is that they still think they’ll wear you down and get their way.”
– Faith
When P was younger I would have to grasp his face, turn him to look at me, and make eye contact. It was only then that I knew he heard me.
Now that he is older he still zones out and doesn’t hear me sometimes so I will:
1. Stop and stare at him until he looks at me
2. Move into his line of vision and make it where he sees me
3. Ask him to repeat what I just said
4. Add something odd (I did this last night to J by telling him to only brush every other tooth…it was hilarious!)
These did not work with my ex…so glad he’s an ex! LOL
And I have no clue if it would help with your son…but it is what I do.
I went the yelling route. Our kids, as we have discussed, are very different. It got to where P would stand and blink rapidly and J would shut down. It made me feel like I was being a horrible person…so I tried other things.
I do want to say after reading this I went and looked at the other post and had something to say there as well. Here it is:
I LOVE your son! He heard you yelling and checked on you! He showed how much he wants you to be okay. He was worried and made sure you were okay.
I am upset about your husband. I do not understand how he could hear you yelling in the middle of the night, even thinking it was at your son, and not check. What reason could you have to be yelling at anyone in the middle of the night?! He should have checked. Even if just to make sure your son was okay…but we have discussed similar before.
I just wanted to say sorry it happend, I am betting you are grateful it seems more a “while sleeping” thing, and give your boy a huge hug and kudos for caring enough to get up and check on you.
I am with Pam on this one going the quieter route. I also shortened my reply to simply the word No. I don’t respond to, explain, offer suggestions or anything else. This worked with my alcoholic father, co-dependant mother, demanding grandmother, cousins and friends who’d been walking over my boundaries for years.
What I noticed from all of our previous interactions even when young was that yelling actually shut down certain parts of the brain and awakens the lizard brain or the part of the brain which deals with fight, flight or freeze.
Also basically continuing to yell about the boundary I was trying to set made it seem like I had to force the other person to accept my boundary. I finally understood that I was feeling unheard. What really made it stick was that I needed to be the one to hear my boundary set firmly, even if they didn’t. I had to know that my boundary was mine and that others have the right to respond to it as they wish.
Minna,
Brilliance!
A light went on when I read this. It is aggravating when people do not respond the way I wish to the boundaries I set for them. It does not mean the boundary was not set or not mine. They are making a choice and so am I.
That being said some people are really aggravating.
Thank you very much.
Minna,
Again this really really was a huge help to me. That protecting my boundary’s activated what I call my reptilian brain resonates with me. That is what happens. If I am protecting someone else s boundary which is kinda what I do for work as a consultant it all goes away.
There are at least three other responses that my reptilian brain has. One I call the hibernation response. It was labeled as depression. My body just shuts down as that is what it needs to do. The first thing to shut down is my ability to understand numbers. The other is what I call campaign mode. This is when my body prepares for a long journey or time of hardship. The third is battle mode where my body is ready for a immediate difficult task. Most noticeably my brain cools itself down.
That others have the right to respond to my boundaries as they wish is huge.That those in power are often there as they wish to not honor others boundaries is huge.
That my family has distorted boundaries which I did not follow as they were distorted I did not understand in the same way that I do now. I missed there were different boundaries for me as the scapegoat.
The not explaining, offering or suggesting is huge.
I have just started to work on not having my own thoughts for which I thank the other commenters. Explains why we developed our own internal languages. A thank you to them also.
I have this same problem. I bet many of us do.
I have been told to do the “no response” thing, but I do not have the patience for that. I’m sure it works, but I can’t deal with the fall out of the OTHER people yelling as though you just didn’t hear them.
When the boundary issue becomes too much or I feel taken advantage of, I call a family meeting. I explain how it makes me feel when my words are ignored and I feel I have to get louder and bitchier to get their attention. I then try to get them all to agree to try to listen better, and I have been known to use buzz words for when they are “doing that ignoring thing”. This sometimes helps to pull them out of automatic pilot, but not always.
Good luck Faith. This is probably among the hardest tasks to maintain for me, so you have my full empathy and support.
As always thanks for a meaningful post.
peace,
m
Sometimes yelling is the only way to breakthrough to my child as well. If I can, I will use the whisper technique, but that only works if she’s engaged with me. If she’s distracted, she has no clue that I’m even speaking to her.
I also ask her to repeat back to me what I’ve said, and she’s rarely able to do that after the first time.
Good for you, boundaries are wonderful things.
Hi, mamacarriemakes.
Thanks for posting that. I don’t want to get into the differences with parenting a special needs child, but it sounds like you get it. When my child is laughing hysterically and throwing toys at the dogs, he isn’t going to hear my whisper. :0(
– Faith
Boundaries. Hoo boy, I have been struggling with this – along with the many others here as well – for a very long time (and have a small library of books devoted entirely to the subject!)
The part of your post, Faith, that really stuck out for me was this: “I had taught my family over the years that I would do whatever they wanted, so they didn’t take me seriously when I said no.”
Bingo! I struggled for sooo long in trying to make others take me seriously virtually ALL MY LIFE (doesn’t help that I am the last born aka, the “baby of the family” – talking about my family of origin here)…that you know something what? I had to learn to take myself seriously FIRST!!!
After that, I won’t say that it has been exactly a piece of cake – but there is something palpable in my style and manner (and even posture) which exudes a clear sense that I am taking MYSELF seriously and I mean what I say and say what I mean. Nothing ‘over the top’ – just a confidence about myself.
(I don’t have any children (just a bunch of cats 😉 so, I can’t comment on that, other than to say that being a parent is probably one of the hardest jobs in the world – hands down!)
But, by the same token, because there is still some learning to be had – I also have to be aware when I may be infringing upon someone else’s boundaries as well, which I tend to do sometimes and have to be aware of it enough to realize when it is happening – and/or, if not – appreciate them for pointing that out to me in a respectful, non-confrontational way.
We teach people how to treat us. I think we really do…and others in turn, teach us how to treat them.
I think that is how it works. Bottom line.
I rarely yell at someone else (well, outside of some of the idiots in traffic and some of these knuckle-headed politicians while watching TV!)
I do from time to time have ‘passionate discussions’ with my SO – but it never is in any abusive, berating or humiliating way – and even at that, I am learning to TRY and nip this in the bud before it escalates to even that point – though this is not to say that it never will happen. We are all human and subject to make mistakes but don’t need our faces rubbed in the sand because of it.
Open, honest, serious communication and a devotion to active listening on all sides can and do go a long way!
Overall, I am finding that the more I take my own feelings and needs and perspectives seriously, the easier it is to just naturally convey what I will and will not accept without a whole lot of drama.
Doesn’t mean that I am not open to compromise – I am always open to MUTUAL compromise…with ‘mutual’ being the operative word here ~
I am reminded of a part (the ending) of the magnificent poem by Maya Angelou entitled: “Phenomenal Woman”:
Now you understand
Just why my head’s not bowed.
I don’t shout or jump about
Or have to talk real loud.
When you see me passing
It ought to make you proud.
I say,
It’s in the click of my heels,
The bend of my hair,
the palm of my hand,
The need of my care,
‘Cause I’m a woman
Phenomenally.
Phenomenal woman,
That’s me.
The whole poem here: http://poemhunter.com/poem/phenomenal-woman/
On one final note here – my boundaries growing up were so shattered and obliterated that I didn’t even realize that I could have the ‘privacy’ of my own thoughts. Imagine that! Boy, talk about brain-washing!!!
I now have that…place. My place. Personal. My thoughts. My feelings. NOT subject to comment, judgement or speculation from anyone else except for myself…and I like that!
What a wonderful gift that is to finally figure out!
It’s kind of a…hmmm..what’s the right word here – a debriefing maybe?
Yeah. I think that term applies.
Great topic for discussion!
Great subject again. I’ve been making sure I’m not a doormat to people but at the same time embracing the love that is me and at times it takes yelling for people to hear ya, especially if my words do not matter. Because my words to matter, my feelings to matter… I do matter. I’m confident Faith isn’t yelling to dominate but to be heard. Thats an important difference. I’m a middle child of a large family (seven children, seven children who all received child sex pains one level or another), and I was overly joyous when I got new clothes and not hand me downs. The ones under me got new clothes all the time because by the time they got to me they were trashed and couldn’t be worn after me. I learnt to be ‘quiet’ and accept. At 14 ( i was very small then but he saw my eyes) I told my dad when I got older I was going to come back a smash him badly, my anger began and my ‘quietness’ began to thin. He never belted me again. Over the years I’ve embraced anger in its fullest (martial arts for 20years. Bag work for 2 hours does wonders for my release but also my drawing, writing and poetry also always helped me) but always I’ve kept my love alive, this saved me. I have a big red dragon tattoo over all of my left ribs(16 hours of work) and a big Unicorn head on my left arm with the horn on my chest and I use this nowadays as a parable for myself. The loudness, the strength of dragon is there if needed but the love and strength of Unicorn is the hope of my Soul.
I have a saying to myself (my own mythologies 🙂 ), A wise Dragon has the abilty to be become the Unicorn. Wise dragons ponder the depth of Unicorn often and wonder of its strengths. Unicorn’s loudness is the yelling I wish to aim for.
Wow, I really relate to this. My mother does not respect NO until I am yelling and then she tells me I’m abusive for raising my voice. Even then, she doesn’t care what I’m saying, just the fact that I’m loud makes me wrong. She used to physically get in my way (as an adult) to prevent me from walking away, so that I would be forced to shove her out of my way, knowing I would hesitate to do that to “my mother.” I don’t know what to tell you to do instead. But thanks for the post. I also relate to Brenda’s comment about not knowing you’re allowed to have private thoughts! 🙂
Hi Amy,
Shoot, I was “forty-something” before it dawned on me that I could actually HAVE my own private thoughts and perceptions!
It happened quite by accident, because, let’s face it – this is not exactly the type of thing that anyone ever really talks about. (sadly, really.)
I think most folks just take it as a ‘given’ and probably feel no need to explain it.
Kind of like – just assume that most folks already KNOW THIS.
So, I caught a whiff of it from someone whom talked about it in sort of an off-handed way…and I remember thinking to myself…..what?
You mean you can ACTUALLY HAVE private and personal thoughts????
A personal space where no one is judging or invading???
Wait-what? Really?
So like….that means…(what?) I can too!
What a fricking revelation!
Sad….but true.
But hell, I reckon – better late than never!
Makes life all that much precious and sweeter the way I see it. ~
Allows me to squeeze every bit of the good juice outta life from this day going forward which is most assuredly STILL there!
…And all the sweeter because of it!
I still yell once in a while, but mostly I walk away to another room. Having lived in an all male household for 31 years, I learned that husbands and sons do not listen the first time, or second etc. etc. . Must be a testosterone thing:)
I used to have the same problem. I one time asked, “How come I have to feel like I’m going to explode before you listen to me?” and the reply I got was, “I generally tune out about two-thirds of what you say because I think I already know what you’re going to say.” I was stunned … but it sure made sense about why I had to repeat something at least three times!
It isn’t that the SO is an ass, necessarily. But he/I knew each other for a very long time before I went into T – long enough that the SO was very accustomed to me not expressing any opinion, not voicing dissent, pretty much just doing as was asked of me whether I liked it or not. That is a hard pattern for ME to break; it has to be even harder for the SO to learn differently … because, you know, that’s a pretty sweet deal for him for quite some time.
So between the revelation that apparently the man was only listening to a third of what I said and both of us learning at how/why I never felt like I had choices before – we’ve made some improvements. I won’t ask him, “Did you hear me?” after I discuss something with him, I will ask, “Did you understand me,” which means that he has to be listening to the words as well as processing/thinking about what I’ve said.
I also need to be careful to not revert to my old habits and patterns that were so familiar for so long. While I may have thought I was making myself clear and expressing an opinion/making a request, in retrospect I can see that my communication skills needed significant improvement. Saying “I sure am tired having worked all week” is definitely not the same as saying, “I sure am tired and need you to make dinner for us, please.” It takes practice to learn to speak up for myself/express myself clearly.
wtr
I’ve had the “Clearly, I do” conversation with my husband! Once, in frustration, I said “I don’t want to shout at you, but I feel like you aren’t going to hear me until I start yelling” and he looked surprised and said “Oh, you’re right! I’m sorry.” It wouldn’t work with everyone, but since then I’ve mostly managed to avoid shouting at my sweetie (and consequently feeling like scum) by telling him that I’m about to reach my breaking point and I need him to listen.