I talked to my sister about momster’s letter and made her promise to talk with her therapist about it. Her reaction (and she says her therapist’s reaction) is that I am overreacting to the contact because I am fighting processing momster’s mortality. Momster has had three surgeries in the last couple of months, and they believe that I am fighting facing the reality that momster could die before I work through my issues with her.
My reaction is that this is complete BS and so far off the mark that I couldn’t see it with a telescope. I do not have unresolved feelings toward momster. She “died” to me in 2003 when I recovered the memories of the mother-daughter sexual abuse, and the only reason there is any sliver of connection between momster and me is because we are both still in my sister’s life. The only information I receive about momster’s health, etc., is through my sister, and I endured three months of internal emotional hell before and after seeing momster at my sister’s graduation in 2009, not because of unresolved feelings toward momster but because my love for my sister was stronger than my very strong repulsion at the thought of seeing momster.
I spent hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars in therapy working through my feelings toward momster in 2003-2006. I recognized that while I grieved the loss of having a mother, I was not grieving the loss of HER as a mother because she did not offer motherhood to me. She was something I endured and survived by the skin of my teeth. I have no unresolved issues with her because I resolved them quite well through years of therapy. If my sister was not in my life, all connection with momster would be 100% severed, which would be a relief. I endure the limited information about momster because of my love for my sister—I do not keep a relationship with my sister for the purpose of maintaining a connection with momster. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree on this topic.
My sister and her therapist strongly encouraged me to talk with my therapist about all of this, which I have already done through an email. He has not been able to see me yet because of family medical health issues, but he is aware of all that is going on and wants to meet when he can focus on my stuff so we can process everything.
Photo credit: Hekatekris
Blooming Lotus 
Hi Faith,
Ok, I cannot emphasize enough how messed up it is for your sister’s therapist to be commenting to her on your process. As a licensed clinical social worker in 2 states (and a thriver, too) I know for a fact that behavior is quite concerning and very unethical. I say this b/c it makes me wonder about the efficacy of your sister’s therapy. I’m so sorry that this happened to you!
I’m sorry, too, that your sister questioned your process. As I posted in an earlier comment, I am also close to my sister but have recently begun to see the ways in which we are different as persons and in our recovery. I feel sad for your sister b/c it sounds like your stance is an uncomfortable one for her, but know that you are doing the right thing for you and that thousands of survivors who have come before you have had to do the same thing with their abusers (cut them off)…..you are not crazy but I think from the tone of your blog that you might be angry:) Good for you!
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
Thanks for mentioning what you said about Faith’s sister’s therapist, and in such a straightforward way. Not enough of that in today’s world, so that says a lot about your character.
One thing I’d like to point out (having been through a somewhat similar situation in the past); we don’t know that Faith’s sister’s therapist actually said that – only that her sister SAID he did. One of the things I’ve learned to look for is when people seem to be saying things that aren’t what they believe, but are repeating words/opinions ‘given’ to them by others. Faith’s sister’s words (that I quoted below) strike me as quite possibly someone else’s words coming out of her sister’s mouth. If that’s the case, it’s not such a stretch that Faith’s sister is being asked/prompted to stretch the truth in other ways – such as putting words in her therapist’s mouth that were never there.
As you said, this kind of behaviour by a licensed MH professional is highly unethical; but there is no evidence that I’m aware of of prior unethical behaviour on the part of sis’s therapist. So I would tend to give him the benefit of the doubt here until more can be determined.
Jenny,
Thanks for recognizing this and commenting. Faith’s therapist DX her mother with schizophrenia never having met her and Faith accepts this. Drives me nuts.
When ever I read My therapist say’s ….. it is often followed by a statement that if the therapist did say that the therapist is unethical.
A therapist that is qualified is not necessarily competent. Knowing and following ethics is the base of competency. I have found the mental health field in general to be less ethical than other professions.
The mental health field is more about standards. Modern standards are typically risk management based on the latest court case. The base standard for therapist is note taking and having a plan of treatment and safety plan in place. If this is the limit of your therapists understanding you are wasting your time. This is not ethics it is standards. Standards are usually followed by the mental health field.
Ethics are in no way limiting to what can be accomplished in a therapeutic relationship. It does take effort to learn and maintain ethics. Unethical therapy is very limiting. If the therapist states all those who are abused can only cope. That is the best that relationship can do. On the other hand if the therapist states everyone can heal and have the trauma be in the past than that can cause the relationship to fail as that might not be true for that person.
It is like this in the State of Fl I am qualified to build any structure. I am not competent. The ethics of my profession require I do not build anything I am not competent to build. In NE I am qualified to work on any wetland. I get close to the CT river and I call someone else with a broader range of plant identification. They might call me as I am strong in soils and hydrology. Some times I call someone in just cause I am confused or think I might be.
Hi Michael,
Brilliant observations re: MH and standards, and the difference between being qualified and being competent.
“A therapist that is qualified is not necessarily competent. Knowing and following ethics is the base of competency. I have found the mental health field in general to be less ethical than other professions.
The mental health field is more about standards. Modern standards are typically risk management based on the latest court case. The base standard for therapist is note taking and having a plan of treatment and safety plan in place. If this is the limit of your therapists understanding you are wasting your time. This is not ethics it is standards. Standards are usually followed by the mental health field.”
I’d never thought of it that way before, but what you’ve written is so obvious. One of those “how did I never see that before” kind of things.
Good example, btw, about the difference between being qualified and being competent. it’s one of the ways I’ve been running into trouble lately – spending too much time evaluating if people are qualified, but not paying enough attention to whether or not they are competent – particularly in a particular area or specialization. Entirely different set of markers and evaluation criteria needed.
Re: when therapists diagnose others without seeing them – hadn’t really given it too much thought before, but after your post the other day about malingering, that gives it an entirely different focus. Really highlights the importance of following ethical practices (AND standards!)
I had the opposite problem (sort of): years of therapy where no-one would tell me the truth about my mother or what I was dealing with, because they all seemed to come from various ideological perspectives where there is no such thing as evil (or even violent) women. Had to discover the terms sadist and psychopath on my own, but had to leave therapy to do it. But, come to think of it, no-one would mention those terms but they did feel comfortable throwing around such nonsense diagnoses for her as depression and – snort, laugh – post-partum psychosis to explain her behaviour! Of course, it’s completely ludicrous to ascribe violent sadistic behaviour towards your children – 8 years after the birth of your youngest child and 5 years post-hysterectomy – to post-partum psychosis, but that’s what they felt comfortable doing, regardless of how ludicrous it sounds. Anything – ANYTHING – but admit that she was plain, old-fashioned violent and evil.
I find it amazing. If a client asks me what I am going to do I tell them I have no idea I do not have all the information yet. Most therapist know what they are going to do with no information.
I do design work and permitting. I often say. I can tell you what most consultants would do or if you give me a name of a particular consultants I can tell you what they would do. That is not the way real professionals work.
I did a site this morning. I have to look at the land surveyors work and see if I am going to accept it. Therapists just blindly accept what ever the therapist before them says. Even in the face of they know they are totally wrong with DX 20% of the time and that is only the ones they know about.
i once told a head of a ward. You have 20 people on this ward. That means you know 4 of them have the wrong Dx. Take your the number of your yearly population and that is the min number a year that are being treated for the wrong DX. She was not pleased.
Correction: my comment above should have read “18 years after the birth of your youngest child…”
Faith … I can absolutely relate to everything you have said in this post. I feel exactly the same way about my own momster, and it can be so frustrating to have people tell you that the discomfort you feel regarding contact with her is due to your own failure to completely process your feelings. The best thing I ever did was cut contact with my mother. I still have peripheral knowledge of her life via my brother’s family (niece and nephews, etc).
I believe that in every single family, every single sibling has a different relationship with each parent. My brother was not the target of my mother’s abuse the way that I was. He received his share of physical abuse, but the systematic emotional abuse seemed to be reserved for me. He is able to maintain a relationship with her today because of that. According to him, he just treats her like a child, because to him, she is just a not-fully-matured adult.
To me, she is toxic and a threat to my kids, so I have nothing to do with her. Every time I have inadvertently had contact with her, she tries to slam through boundaries and rehash that the problems are all my fault. So, the door is shut, likely never to be cracked open again.
I applaud your strength in recognizing your own achievements in healing and processing all of this. It’s natural that your sister’s experiences would have been different, and it’s natural that her healing process and present-day relationship with your momster is different.
Agreeing to disagree may be the best way forward. That’s what I do with my own sibling.
Faith,
I’m sending truckloads of hugs and support and prayers your way. This must be so hard for you. I’m sure you know your readers are here for you, sharing the pain with you, but it always bears repeating. I’m so thankful that you also have your faith to rely on; I was so impressed when you told us that you prayed to find the reasons behind your distress, and that the answer came to you immediately. I can’t tell you how powerful that was to read.
I apologize in advance if this is difficult for you to read, and hope you’ll ignore it if it doesn’t apply. I have some pretty strong concerns about your relationship with your sister. If this isn’t something you’re comfortable hearing about – I’d just stop reading this comment here and don’t go on…
The following is just what I’ve read into your situation so far – I could be entirely wrong, so I sincerely apologize if this is off-base. And I don’t know what’s coming up in your posts this week. But nevertheless, here goes:
All kinds of things in your sister’s situation don’t add up for me – in particular her maintaining contact with your momster and especially in the choice of words she’s used in her communication with you: (“she does not believe that a mother should EVER be shut out by her child no matter what she has done. My sister also sees staying in contact as being compassionate – that nobody deserves to be alone.”) To me, that comes off as being a very aggressive criticism of your position, and more importantly of you as a person. At a minimum, knowing how you feel about your momster (and RIGHTLY so), I’m not seeing a lot of support for YOU there (perhaps – I’m not aware of all of your story); I don’t see any validation for your feelings in there either.
You say that she says she’s always remembered everything, whereas you had it blocked AND shattered into DID. And yet, remembering everything that happened, she’s chosen to maintain contact and support her mother while receiving no expressions of remorse, regret or apology from her. Even worse, she’s allowing her children contact with her. You posted the other day that it was your sister, not you, that said that your momster plays up her lack of intelligence, which is a pretty strong acknowledgement of how manipulative and potentially dangerous she is, and that she’s choosing to wear a mask to hide her true intentions and capabilities. That just doesn’t add up, to me. I’d suggest that, perhaps, your sister may not have blocked the memories, but I’d be suspicious that she’s at least blocked the feelings. I don’t think it’s at all beyond the realm of possibility that she’s been subject to your momster’s programming. I know you said her life was messed up before but she’s now got her life in order; but that doesn’t necessarily mean that her previous acting up was ‘processing’ her trauma.
As Michael pointed out, for programming to be effective you must be in contact with the programmer. You aren’t, but she is. Look at how powerful the impact of the letter was on you – and you don’t see or communicate regularly with your momster. If your sister is already ‘under her mother’s spell’ (not a great way to put it, but I can’t find a better one at the moment), I doubt that all your gentle warnings in the world will snap her out of it.
If that’s the case, better to put the oxygen mask on yourself, get yourself away completely to safety, and make a safe place for her to go to should she manage to break away.
In family systems theory, sometimes one person holds all of a particular emotion for the entire family, so the rest don’t have to carry/acknowledge it themselves. I’m wondering if you aren’t carrying, but also processing, the grief and pain and fear for everyone in your family including your sister. If so, that’s an awfully large burden to bear. Also, if so, perhaps it’s preventing your sister from carrying and processing her own?
I can’t help but notice that the post where you quoted your sister “she does not believe that a mother should EVER be shut out by her child no matter what she has done. My sister also sees staying in contact as being compassionate – that nobody deserves to be alone.” was titled: Buying into the Lies.
I see even more red flags in your post that concern me (especially around what your sister has said about her therapist), but I’ve probably said more than enough already.
This stuff hurts like h*** to deal with. May your faith keep you strong and centred, and continuing on the right path. And may it give you solace and comfort to help get you through this.
I think that it is borderline unethical for your sister’s analyst to attempt to analyse you or even offer an opinion as to what you are feeling/thinking when he has only heard about you through your sister! That is a crock!
Perhaps he is part of the reason your sister is so tolerant of you momster…? Who knows.
I’m sorry, but I think that if you think something is happening, after all youve been through, then it probably is.
Hang in there Faith. PS After all that m has done to you and your sister, I’d say there is NO reaction that can possibly be an over reaction where she is concerned… but you know, that’s just me.
Peace,
m
It is BS, absolutely! Even if your sister’s therapist felt you were overreacting, they can only go off the information your sister tells them and the way she presents it to draw that conclusion. I’m not saying your sister did something wrong, only that her feelings and opinions would likely color what she told her therapist.
It’s like when my mother told me she went to a therapist and he said there’s nothing wrong with her. Everyone who knows what she did knows that’s BS, and if he did say that then it’s because of how she presented the information.
Regardless, you’re doing what you need to do to protect yourself and that’s great.
I’m curious, is your sister programmed? I keep wondering why she keeps in touch with that woman? Was she subjected to programming that makes her do that?
Hi Birdfeeder,
I completely agree with your assessment re: the possibility that the therapist did not say anything regarding Faith’s process. I appreciate how you worded that:)
Faith,
I am comfortable in writing that I feel the issue is you have not processed to the level required where there is no issue. It is possible. It is not in my opinion possible with your current level of understanding nor what you describe as your therapists understanding.,
Journey on,
Michael
Hi Faith:)
I have been reading all of the responses to your blog today and have sat down to write my own response several times and stopped because I couldn’t find what it was that I wanted to say. I think that Birdfeeder and Michael are spot on on their assessments and I didn’t want to repeat what they said so very well. Finally, it came to me that I just want to tell you that I hope you know that you are exactly where you are supposed to be in your healing journey, not one step too far and not not far enough. I know through personal experience that once you step on the road to recovery there awakens inside a part of the self that seems to always be saying “grow, grow, grow” (like the proverb of the grass blade:)…and the road may seem, at times, crooked and narrow but as long as you keep walking it you will surely find your peace. Take care, Jenny
Hey Jenny,
I spent 8 years with therapists that believed I was right where I should be and so they could not hear when I told them I was not. Few ever find the peace. It is hard and most therapists are in the way and do not even know it. Note: These 8 years were typical therapy. It was not I had a bad experience.
If you go down the road that most therapist follow you can only get to where their road will lead.
I am in complex psychoanalysis and complex expressive therapy. Pretty much I design my way to heal and my therapist with in the confines of ethical constraints is there.
I had to completely design my own way to deal with my body which is not the same as one with different experiences.
My therapist understands she does not understand and never will and she can live it.
Journey on,
Michael
Michael,
I do understand what you are saying. My therapist basically lets me go where I need to go instead of telling me where I need to be. She has also avoided diagnosing the people in my life who have abused me because none of it matters except for how my parts perceive it, experience it, feel it and live it. For example, my 2 year old self doesn’t care if my mom was bi-polar, schizophrenic, psychotic, depressed or whatever…she just knows that Mommy scared her.
That being said, I think that some people feel the need put a dx or label on the perpetrator because it helps the “adult” them to cope with, or put into a box, in some way, what happened. For me, though, there is no diagnosis that would ever make what was done to me understandable. Period.
What may look like mental illness to one person looks like evil to another. It’s all in the perspective.
Jenny
Hi Jenny,
You have a point. Dx isn’t always helpful, and may even be a distraction. And, considering how often and how profoundly the DSM changes (and how much the insiders argue and fight about it) perhaps even of dubious value!
However, I think there is one distinction that *is* relevant, and its absence is a problem I’ve witnessed repeatedly over the years: Those children whose parents both enjoyed causing and witnessing their suffering and were hunted/predated by their parents have a very different experience from those whose parents were mentally ill in the conventional sense (i.e. schizophrenia). It’s one thing to be subjected to incidental violence that had nothing to do with you personally other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It’s quite another to live a life where those who commit violence have specifically chosen you as a target and will follow you wherever you go to commit it, and for as long as either of you live.
I don’t particularly care what the Dx is, but in order to achieve some kind of mastery in your own life it’s absolutely required to understand clearly what you’re dealing with, in order to take appropriate steps to protect yourself, and live your life in a healthy way. We far too easily jump to the truism that ‘your parents are no longer dangerous to you’. There is SO much evidence and so many cases that disprove that as a universal truth, but no-one wants to admit or examine them.
It’s only been recently, by working through with my therapist HOW exactly my mother is still a danger to me at this moment, that I could finally start to identify which areas are truly still dangerous and which are safe. Being able to identify the true danger has, conversely, finally given me safe places to be and let down my anxiety.
People do not understand the real danger or psychopaths. 50% of all murders that are known about go unsolved. It is often said the majority of murders are by someone that is known to the victim. It is not understood many are not known. Reality is you are not likely to get caught for killing someone unless you are stupid and or unlikely.
Therapy was dangerous for me as I would end up not knowing who or where I was. Not safe at all.
Drives me nuts when therapist try to solve things that are not a problem.
I do want to say that those therapists who are competent are extraordinary people. Kinda like the few teachers that are.
Jenny,
I am finding that often being able to name something is a substitute for understanding and getting in the way of what little understanding is possible.
A classic example is when people started calling me an artist. Well you know how artists are ect. I had exactly one work done in my life on a board in a restaurant. I had never done anything before.
For me it is all about expressing and not correcting. One of us said they had no issue with being a prostitute. Had our therapist known that we really deep down did we never would have got to what was going on the days we were not a prostitute. Makes sense why they had no issue with the prostitution. For us at the time it was a day off and we looked forward to it.
I am having fun watching new people in my life try to build a way to reference me. Some give up and we get along fine. I did not know people did this as I do not. Classic the other day is it was determined that I was making masculine pendents out of glass as I am male. I am trying to use up my old glass pieces and it is boring so I make big pendents to get it over with.
Some people do not need a reference other than the one my relationship creates with them. That is who I hang with now.
Wow, comments coming fast and furious on today’s post – but not a word yet from Faith.
Faith, all of these comments may be coming pretty close to the bone – perhaps too much so. I hope you’re OK and we (I) haven’t crossed any boundaries here.
im totally with you faith in your assessment. i find it to be rather unhealing, unperceptive, and unpsychological that a therapist would come up with this explanation for your reaction to your mother. i think most people might actually welcome their abusers death because it is so horrendous what they did. their death might bring a certain feeling of release. personally, i think that is a healthy response. i don’t think it is natural to give abusers support and loving kindness. maybe if society woke up and applied that we wouldn’t have such an abusive world. just my two cents.
sending lots of supportiveness your way.
I was thinking all day why my therapy works. There are many factors. The base of it that my therapy is about me. It is not about what is known about the effects of trauma. certainly not the 80’s model which is prevalent, it is not about what the effects of trauma are on others, it is not about my therapists ego, it is not about what anyone told her something must mean.
She know all the theories. If I want I can work with the scapegoat theory or the dysfunctional family theory. She had a total grasp of the DID theory although that one is NA.
On a fundamental level when I see her next she will be glad to see me and sorry when I leave. It might be the opposite for me and that is OK.
Faith,
Your sister seems to have made a simple “solution” to the very complex relationship between you and your mother – most likely she has a complicated relationship too – not sure to which lengths she simplifies her own relationship with her OR with you. I can see why you’ve got her statements on – as Anderson Cooper would say, “The Ridiculist.” On the other hand you’ve got a lot of people here that support you and your thoughts.
Kudos for all the hundreds of hours put into defining the boundaries between yourselves and family. And good catch from birdfeeder in distinguishing what may or may not have been said by your sister’s T due to an interpretation of your sister. We will admit to the statements made by our TIRED parts who go to bed loud and whiney and complaining to our live-in-lover that, “Dr. Marvin said I don’t NEED to take medicine OR go to bed!” Ok, yeah … it hasn’t worked yet, but you never know?
Our best,
Anns
aynetao3,
Although I never take meds and do not interact with anyone other than a adult there is some what we call playing the Therapist card among us when we get tired. The Gypsy Dancer would think it was a good idea. That sort of thing.
My mother didn’t abuse me. At least as far as I know. But she was neglectful and she did allow me to be abused. She knew it and she didn’t stop it, she did not protect me or rescue me. She was so wrapped up in her own depression that she didn’t bond with her children. My mother seemed like a teenager that never grew up. We had a relationship but I wouldn’t call it a mother daughter relationship. For some reason I felt obligated to care and provide for her. She passed away very suddenly and unexpectedly 3 years ago before I could resolve my issues with her. I have yet to grieve her death. I did not grieve because there was no bond. In many ways her death was relief, I was now free from the burden of taking care of her. My therapist told me recently that I have not forgiven her. That it seems like I’m still pissed off at her. What ever… Maybe I am but I certainly don’t dwell on it and my thoughts are seldom focused on her. I wish we would have had a mother daughter relationship but we did not.
Shadow,
I was once talking to a woman who had a daughter and had lost one in and accident. She told me and then said I do not tell very many people. I said I was sorry and thanked her for sharing. I asked her why she did not tell many people. She said that when she does they assume they know how it effected me. They assume no matter how I act toward my daughter it must be because I lost one. Often they will feel I am overly protective. I asked her why she told me and she said I figured you would not think you know how it feels.
When my father died everyone assumed I much grieve. I had no need nor will I. I do not need to get in touch with feeling I don’t have.
It is similar to when people assume they know what it was like for me to be abused. They pretty much can not listen. When a person is abused … I do not have that issue with my therapist. I might have at first if I had let her speak. Smile.
If I were to tell most therapists of my experience they would likely assume there was an issue with bonding and we would get nowhere. It is very much like commitment. I do not bond or commit lightly. It is very very important to me and I commit and bond deeply.
There is a proof. If the results of trauma were known would not a therapist be able to know what had happened to a person without them telling?
It is funny how if a person has a near death experience and it is in the realm of the known that it is assumed they now life life to its fullest yet if it is a child that can not happen.
I do consider that perhaps the accepted effects of abuse apply to me. It is helpful for me to go back in my memory and see if it was true before therapy. An example is my concentration. Doing memory work really makes that hard. Go figure. It does not follow I need to learn how to do that.
I think it would be helpful for many to look closely at the therapists projections of what must be.
I will give an example. I moved from the town where much of the abuse happened when I was 13. I never looked back bla bla bla. You know what most people have never experienced the thrill of being free like I have. I am not saying everyone should try it. Just don’t step on my experiences with what someone taught you must be true.
On the other hand I grieved very deeply for my abuser. I still do. I bonded with him. My therapist doesn’t understand this either. I’m sure not many would. But when your abuser is the only one in your world who cares for you… That is what happens. Distorted as it is…
Hey Shadow,
I thought about this a lot. For me I find it disrespectful for me to judge what I was doing then from the perspective of now. It was not distorted any more to me than it would be to anyone else.
I really thing that if the bonding with the abusers did not happen that would be a sign I was like them.
All of our experiences are so different. I had many abusers and many groups of abusers. Sounds horrible. Ya it was. Reality is I had a better chance to figure stuff out. Compare and Contrast is a powerful tool. Thing is you need understanding of both things if you are to compare and contrast.
Often the compare and contrast is done without understanding of both things. It is funny. I never hear well that is because you are in business for yourself from anyone in business.
Hi Shadow,
What follows are just my thoughts; please feel free to take whatever works for you and disregard anything that doesn’t.
That certainly sounds to me like your mother abused you. And imo it’s OK for you to feel whatever you feel about it. I’ve been a member of a group for almost three years, and I can tell you that the vast majority of women who came through our group and were abused by fathers, brothers, uncles, step-fathers, family friends, etc… were abused with the knowledge, and frequently the encouragement/complicity, of their mothers. It’s a particularly insidious kind of abuse because it demonizes the males without even acknowledging the mother’s role in it (nor does it recognize the difference in the ways that male and females most often aggressive against others). Not every mother knew, but most did. The main difference was in the extreme difference in the way they reacted after hearing (or being confronted) about the abuse: night and day. BTW, just making a huge fuss and creating drama isn’t necessarily done for the benefit of the child, the difference is really whether or not the child is helped to feel safe and protected and loved once the abuse is ‘outed’.
There are different kinds of abuse, and different kinds (or rather expressions) of aggression. George K. Simon has a wonderful book “In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People”. In it he describes something he believes is one of the worst types of abuse: “covert aggression”, meaning aggression disguised as something else, such as for instance kindness, or indifference, or passivity, or fear. He says this is particularly dangerous because most people – both victims and bystanders – don’t properly recognize it as aggression, boundary violations &/or abuse and thus don’t take proper steps to protect against it.
Here are a few articles and websites for you to look at – just in case any of this helps to give you another perspective you may not have considered (I’m replacing the “.” with (dot) so that this doesn’t get filtered out):
http://parrishmiller (dot) com/narcissists (dot) html
http://narcissists-suck (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2008/06/best-of-posts-on-narcissists-suck (dot) html
http://narc-attack (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2008/04/malignant-narcissists-shock-tactics (dot) html
Re: the last article – I’d suggest that your mother’s seeming indifference to your abuse could be considered one of the “shock tactics” that Kathy Krajco is referring to.
Re: your ‘bonding’ with your abuser. That’s also a tricky one. In our group we differentiate the kind of abuser, and the level of abuse, that someone has experienced. NOT to compare, but to help understand/quantify what we’re each dealing with. Also, you might want to look up ‘trauma bonding’ if you haven’t already.
Again, from experience in the group, people who had messed up parents/caregivers who both loved *and* abused them often have it MUCH worse in some ways than those of us who never had to wrestle with that confusion but whose level of violence/degradation was greater. It can be really tricky to tease out whether or not someone actually loved you, but not enough to stop them acting out their compulsions with/on you, vs. those people who didn’t love you at all but only made you think they did via grooming so that they could abuse you. But at one level it doesn’t matter; what’s important is that *you* are capable of bonding with someone, and you did that even in awful circumstances. You deserve to allow yourself to grieve over that, and you can’t grieve it if you try to tell yourself your bonding wasn’t valid. I don’t know if that’s what you’re being told, but I’ve seen that before; I’ve seen people *really* struggle with that.
Again, this is just my thoughts based on things I’ve seen, so please ignore anything I’ve said that doesn’t fit or feel right.
Hi birdfeeder,
I’m looking up trauma bonding, and feel this may be just what I need to help clear the confusion about how I feel toward my abusers. Thanks for the heads up. Also, I feel encouraged by the thought you express about “what’s important is that *you* are capable of bonding with someone.”
Hi Shadow,
I’ve written a fairly lengthy reply to you, but it’s sitting waiting to be moderated as it has a few links in it (I thought I’d worked around the filters but apparently I wasn’t as careful as I’d thought).
Re: bonding with your abuser – not as uncommon as you might think, and it’s a very difficult issue that those who’ve experienced it really struggle with. They particularly struggle with the reactions from people around them who don’t get it. I don’t want to repeat what I said earlier, but wanted to let you know that I did respond.
Blessings to you,
birdfeeder
Thanks Michael and Birdfeeder. I’m not sure I understand it let alone trying to explain it to someone else. All I know is that it is what it is… Like it or not…
Hi Shadow – it looks as if Faith has used her ‘pre’-posting to take a well-deserved break, so I’ll try this again – crossing my fingers that this one gets through. My original post (still caught up in the spam filter) is below.
Faith – if you read this (and it gets through the ‘link’ filter to get posted) could you please just delete my orginal post? Thank you!
============================================
Hi Shadow,
What follows are just my thoughts; please feel free to take whatever works for you and disregard anything that doesn’t.
That certainly sounds to me like your mother abused you. And imo it’s OK for you to feel whatever you feel about it. I’ve been a member of a group for almost three years, and I can tell you that the vast majority of women who came through our group and were abused by fathers, brothers, uncles, step-fathers, family friends, etc… were abused with the knowledge, and frequently the encouragement/complicity, of their mothers. It’s a particularly insidious kind of abuse because it demonizes the males without even acknowledging the mother’s role in it (nor does it recognize the difference in the ways that male and females most often aggressive against others). Not every mother knew, but most did. The main difference was in the extreme difference in the way they reacted after hearing (or being confronted) about the abuse: night and day. BTW, just making a huge fuss and creating drama isn’t necessarily done for the benefit of the child, the difference is really whether or not the child is helped to feel safe and protected and loved once the abuse is ‘outed’.
There are different kinds of abuse, and different kinds (or rather expressions) of aggression. George K. Simon has a wonderful book “In Sheep’s Clothing: Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People”. In it he describes something he believes is one of the worst types of abuse: “covert aggression”, meaning aggression disguised as something else, such as for instance kindness, or indifference, or passivity, or fear. He says this is particularly dangerous because most people – both victims and bystanders – don’t properly recognize it as aggression, boundary violations &/or abuse and thus don’t take proper steps to protect against it.
Here are a few articles and websites for you to look at – just in case any of this helps to give you another perspective you may not have considered (I’m replacing the “.” with (dot) (and also omitting the usual http prefix) so that this doesn’t get filtered out):
parrishmiller (dot) com/narcissists (dot) html
narcissists-suck (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2008/06/best-of-posts-on-narcissists-suck (dot) html
narc-attack (dot) blogspot (dot) com/2008/04/malignant-narcissists-shock-tactics (dot) html
Re: the last article – I’d suggest that your mother’s seeming indifference to your abuse could be considered one of the “shock tactics” that Kathy Krajco is referring to.
Re: your ‘bonding’ with your abuser. That’s also a tricky one. In our group we differentiate the kind of abuser, and the level of abuse, that someone has experienced. NOT to compare, but to help understand/quantify what we’re each dealing with. Also, you might want to look up ‘trauma bonding’ if you haven’t already.
Again, from experience in the group, people who had messed up parents/caregivers who both loved *and* abused them often have it MUCH worse in some ways than those of us who never had to wrestle with that confusion but whose level of violence/degradation was greater. It can be really tricky to tease out whether or not someone actually loved you, but not enough to stop them acting out their compulsions with/on you, vs. those people who didn’t love you at all but only made you think they did via grooming so that they could abuse you. But at one level it doesn’t matter; what’s important is that *you* are capable of bonding with someone, and you did that even in awful circumstances. You deserve to allow yourself to grieve over that, and you can’t grieve it if you try to tell yourself your bonding wasn’t valid. I don’t know if that’s what you’re being told, but I’ve seen that before; I’ve seen people *really* struggle with that.
Again, this is just my thoughts based on things I’ve seen, so please ignore anything I’ve said that doesn’t fit or feel right.
Hey Birdfeeder,
Lots of good points there. I as much as I can rail against the concept that all trauma, abuser-abused relationships are the same. If you abandon that notion/delusion than you can face the reality of your trauma and your relationship with the abuser.
There is much about you can not get into the abusers head. That is valid to a point yet can lead to where you never understand how it all worked so it still can work.
They way it works with me is I understand how it all worked to a certain degree and then I just do not care anymore. As long as I still care I know I have not reached the understanding I need and want.
I am using the word care to mean it still effects me. I do not limit it to any one feeling. If I am still angry that I still care in that it is still important to me.
What I am left with is a deeper love for those who were not manipulative.
It is such a fine line. Say I give someone flowers it could be manipulative or it could be genuine expression. Often it comes down to a gift which incurs a debt is not gift at all. This is true for both the receiver and the giver.
Hi, Birdfeeder.
Re: “You deserve to allow yourself to grieve over that, and you can’t grieve it if you try to tell yourself your bonding wasn’t valid.”
I know you posted this to Shadow, but it was meaningful to me, too. Thank you for this.
~ Faith
I just want to be clear:
My counselor never made a statement about Faith’s healing or recovery.
I discussed the topic with her, as requested, and we talked about possible meanings. Never once did she say “your sister…”
This is simply like so much else in life: different view points and opinions. I told my counselor what I thought and asked her opinion on MY OWN THOUGHT PROCESS.
I just wanted that to be clear.
Until reading this I had no clue that is how my words came across, so for that I would like to apologize. I was simply doing what I do (as a scientist): try various alternatives and see what fits. I do not ever go with simply one answer right off the bat. I like to discuss and look at all possible angles. It is simply how my mind works.
L
Hey Lidia,
I am a scientist also. I am old school. You remember where you make a hypothesis then design a experiment to see if you are correct. If you can not show that your hypothesis is correct than you stay with I do not know.
Not the new style. Come up with a hypothesis and go look for facts that match the hypothesis.
See global cooling. Oh that is right it is now global warming. Soon to be well we don’t know how we are effecting the weather we just know we are.
Somehow prophets became scientists.
Hi.
I just had to say you are never supposed to look for facts that match your hypothesis. You are supposed to “fail to disprove”. You must do all you can to prove yourself wrong. When you cannot prove you are wrong all that is left is what is most likely right/correct.
If you look for facts to prove your hypothesis then you are more likely to only look at the facts that support what you think and not at all of the facts.
It is a small point maybe, but an important one. 🙂
On a side note: I know my sister speaks highly of you and so thank you for taking the time to respond to me.
L
I studied in England in 2000. A sophomore in undergraduate school is at the level of the US PH’ds. In Europe the government decides what gets studied in the US the government decides the results. There is little understanding of probability. “There are no good mathematical models only those that are useful.” Erickson father of statistical analysis. Some probabilities can not be computed. As 47% of all medical studies are later refuted the is a 50% +- chance any medical study will be refuted. I lost all hope with the Dolly sheep cloning thing. Not that it happened the editor of the Scientific American stated. Fraud has only happened 4 times and we caught them all. No you idiot you only caught the people that were not good at it and there are more of them in the works. Part of the issue is the study is not often read and will be quoted from what the press writes. A report that concludes there may be a correlation becomes it is shown and then fact. I don’t read past scientists say … unless the “scientist” is referenced. I expect this time in history will be seen as the gray ages. We really just substituted science for religion for the unknown. I do wonder if at the base if it that it is the inability to accept the unknown. Any explanation is better than none. I gave up on history when the Reagan era became history. I lived that time where it was obvious to all that the president of the United States had Alzheimer’s and a laughable president although sad as a person. What is most amazing is I still love the intellectual process of analysis. Here is a fun one. Given that meteors sometime skip. What are the odds of one person having seen only two shooting stars and it being the same one. First you have to figure the probability of one person having seen two shooting stars. Actually first you have to show they skip. I just assumed they do as it sometimes looks that way to me. Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:58:14 +0000 To: dayodayo@msn.com
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