Thanks to the momster drama, back to school activities, traveling, getting a promotion at my job, and getting sick last week, I am embarrassingly behind on reading through the comments. When I logged into my email account (where I receive email copies of all comments as well as emails from readers), I had over 500 messages – Yikes! It is going to take me a while to catch up.
My sister, who occasionally visits and posts as “Lydia,” called me about a logistical issue she was having with one of her comments, which is how I found out about discussions concerning what her therapist said about my momster situation. You can read the discussions here.
Different readers have posted different comments regarding my sister’s therapist’s views about me as well as my therapist’s views about my mother possibly having schizophrenia, so I would like to address those in my next two blog entries.
In neither case did a therapist “diagnose” someone that s/he had not talked with. In both cases, the patient (me re: momster and Lydia re: me) sought to talk with the therapist about concerns with someone in her life who might have mental health issues. The therapist’s observations were based solely on the patient’s representation of the other person’s behavior, which is always going to be filtered through the patient’s accounts of the third party’s behavior. The goal of those discussions is to help the patient work through her feelings about interactions with the other person.
Let’s focus on my situation in this blog entry…I have always known that momster’s interactions with the world was “off,” and I have numerous reasons to believe that she is likely mentally ill. I could go on for days with examples, but one of the most concerning symptoms is her hearing “G*d” audibly talking to her and telling her to do odd things. As a child, I thought that she was more religious than I was and a prophet since G*d talked to people in the Bible, but as I grew older, I recognized that the messages she was receiving were definitely odd. Her interactions with other people are simply not rational and never have been.
Momster has never sought out a diagnosis from the mental health community because she does not believe there is anything wrong with her. She truly believes that the reason that nobody else is hearing G*d audibly talking to them is because they are not prophets like she is. Emotionally healthy people tend to stay away from her because her behavior is so erratic.
I talked with my therapist about her symptoms to help me make sense of them and unravel my own reactions to having been raised by a mentally-ill woman. He never diagnosed her with anything, but he said her symptoms are consistent with schizophrenia. I did my own research and agree with him. No, she has never been diagnosed with a mental illness, but that does not mean that she is not mentally ill. I needed to have a frame of reference from my end to help me heal from my interactions with her regardless of whether she ever chooses to seek professional help, and I did not need to limit my own ability to heal from our relationship based upon whether or not she chose to seek help.
More tomorrow…
Photo credit: Lynda Bernhardt
Blooming Lotus 
Faith,
When you read the comments you are behind on unless you ignore them you will find any therapist who in a therapeutic relationship would in any way indicate or elude to that any other person has schizophrenia at best is guilty of a ethical lapse. It is so aggrevous and so basic it calls into question the professionals competence.
I know you have limited understanding of the mental health field and cults in general. I would not make a judgement if that is necessary for you. I do make the judgement that I feel it is important for me to point out what you describe is unethical. I am assuming you know you are in not position to rationally conclude if your mother is has schizophrenia or not. No child would be in a position to do so.
Just so you know if I were to seek out another therapist and they accepted I was DID/multiple based on another therapists opinion that to would be unethical. Simply put if I am using the work of a surveyor who has stamped a plan and it is recorded in the registry of deeds I can not assume their work is correct. I must verify their work or I am a hack and it is unethical.
All that being said the odds of you having cult experiences without at least one parent having had cult experiences as a child are minimal as the cults are multi generational. It is more reasonable to assume your mother was brought up in a cult family than she is schizophrenia. It would still not be not be ethical for your therapist to assume or suggest that is the case. It would show an understanding of the treatment of trauma.
There are a few exceptions some people with cult experiences called extrafamilial meaning not family related, some I obviously do not know about. Orphans or other displaced children are sometimes brought in the the cults through the members.. They may not be told who they believe to be their parents are not their biological parents. Unless they are deemed of value they may be killed or shunned.
Cults are not made up of stupid people. They do not let unstable people in their ranks. They have 100’s of years of experience and do not make stupid mistakes and their “code” is effective. It is not mysterious if you understand how it all works.
My personal experience is that my parents with a child they did not want and could not afford sold me to a cult and the cult was supplying children to the MKULTA program. The protocol of program I was in which was no more an experiment than the current study of DID and in ways less so was that I would be integrated back into my biological family when I went to first grade, the MKULTRA program continuing thought the public school system. There is no way in the world I could have come to my understanding with a therapist unethically making suggestions.
General note: Those of us in this particular MKUTRA program were called perfects because we had a totally separate life out side of MKLTRA. Being called a perfect was always kinda funny to us.
Maybe someday my therapist and I will discuss cults in general maybe even DID and or multiplicity. Probably not as my therapy is about my experience.
General note: There is progress even with ISSTD
I. Related presentations at the annual conference of the International Society of the Study of Trauma and Dissociation in Long Beach California (October 20 to 22, 2012)
II. “Ritual Abuse: International Clinical Perspectives” at the Alliant University campus in Los Angeles California (Friday, October 19, 2012, 9 am until 4 pm)
III. Mind Control Programming Seminar with Steve Oglevie, in Sydney Australia (Introductory: September 21-23, 2012, Advanced: September 24, 2012)
Having followed all the comments with interest over the last few weeks I’m curious to read your next entries, Faith. I have a perspective to add on today’s topic. I don’t disagree with Michael’s (and others’) point about the ethics of therapists diagnosing people they haven’t met. But I read your description of that conversation slightly differently, because of my own experience. There was a period of time when it was very important for me to think about a particular person from my past as a sociopath. I read about it a lot, and talked about it with my therapist. She didn’t say, “yes, that person is a sociopath [or the more updated diagnosis],” or “no, they aren’t,” or even really seriously entertain the question at all one way or another. Instead she spent a lot of time getting me to think about what it would mean *for me* to think about this person as a sociopath, or as having some of the key behaviors that I was linking to that label. In other words, she used the frame of reference I was bringing in order to help me understand my experience better, and it happened that what I was bringing right then was a mental health diagnosis of sorts. Over time that label became much less important and I now think about this person in different ways.
My point being that my conversation in therapy about what I thought was this person’s mental illness happened in ways that were useful at the time and stayed within the bounds of professional ethics: no second-hand diagnosis, and the focus stayed firmly on me, my experience, and my evolving understanding and self-narrative. Some of what you describe, Faith, sounds like those conversations.
Well said mcr,
You and I are on the same page excepting that what Faith describes is that she knows her mother has schizophrenia as she made the dx by confirming what her therapist indicated.
I use the term sociopath and psychopath in therapy to distinguish my relationships with those that caused the trauma even though the psychopath term has been dropped as a Dx. In my therapy a sociopath might be best explained by what most policemen are. A psychopath describes those that like to maim, kill.and cause pain. It is a she knows and I know thing.
Schizophrenia and borderline are often used as insults and a blanket explanation in lieu of understanding. I would guess that a multiple who does not dissociate has a better chance of getting a Schizophrenia Dx than PTSD. I know of one girl that this happened to. I know two who have the mis Dx of epilepsy.
Note: Multiplicity ceased to exist when it was changed to DID. That is why there are so any new cases of DID. Go figure change the criteria and the selection set is larger.
Note: God told Bush to attack Iraq.
On the lighter side. Narcissism has been dropped as a Dx. Bet that pisses the narcissists off.
Hi, Michael.
“You and I are on the same page excepting that what Faith describes is that she knows her mother has schizophrenia as she made the dx by confirming what her therapist indicated.”
I do not recall ever making that statement, and if I did, then I misspoke (miswrote??). I said that I believe she has schizophrenia, not that she actually does. To me, it’s a moot point because she is not in my life anymore, so her mental state is irrelevant to me.
~ Faith
Hey Faith, You have often stated that you mother has schizophrenia and defended your dx of her as being valid. I am glad it is no longer and issue for you. People making dx is a huge issue over all. I am aware that part of my issue is the many many people on meds that should not be. There are few people or therapist that can tell the difference between a psychosis and a real switch. If I were honest with many professionals I would have gotten the dx of schizophrenia. There were a bunch of students that did an experiment and had a 100% success rate of faking schizophrenia. Dissociation has its roots as an new explanation for the hysteria Dx. It did not replace the hysteria dx of years and in practice really never has.
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2012 11:30:44 +0000 To: dayodayo@msn.com
Hi, Michael.
You are correct that it is no longer an issue for me. :0)
Keep in mind that I have been blogging for ~ five years now, and I continue to grow and change. I said things years ago, on and off the blog, that I believed with every fiber of my being when I said them, but through growth and change, I now see things differently, and I will likely see things differently in another few years as I continue to grow and change. You have been very helpful in this process for me.
As an example, I truly believed that the way that I was healing was THE way to heal because it worked for me. It did not occur to me that some of the tools that work for me, such as yoga, could actually be harmful for others until you and other readers told me otherwise. That is one reason I appreciate alternative points of view on the blog and don’t take offense when we “get loud on the trail” — other viewpoints help me to see a bigger picture, challenge my own views, and sometimes change them. :0)
This particular issue (my mother’s state of mental health) has become a non-issue for me since she is out of my life. When she was in my life, trying to understand her mental state was HUGE for me, especially in the early stages of therapy as I tried to unravel what most people told me (that I was the one with the problem because moms are always right) versus what I believed about myself (that I was not the one causing the problems with her).
Glad we can “get loud” and still be pals. :0)
~ Faith
I am waiting for the day when yoga is good for me. Smile/ Really I do expect it to happen. I do not expect to ever change my evaluation that yoga is good for PTSD. I certainly will not unless I have new information.
I have noticed a weird dynamic that I do not have. People seem to need to see things they thought or did in the past as wrong. I expect not to think or do the things I do now in the future. In effect what I think and do now would be wrong if I thought the way most people seem to think.
If I am the same tomorrow as I am today than today is wasted. Michael
Marriage is a good example. Just because I do not wish to be married now does not mean it was not right for then. Anymore than being married for a long time is a success other than the criteria of staying married. Not much of a goal for me.
It is kinda like growth. People seem to need to think there is a better now thing all the time.
_____________________
You blog is hard as it goes from healing from trauma in general to your healing. And then there is the difference that you and I have in what is healed and what is possible.
Ya the whole mothers know best/maternal instinct thing has got to go. It is false, puts pressure on the mother and stifles the father. When the mother is abusive either actively or by support the child feels blame that is not theirs.
I do think the whole females are not cruel thing is going out the window. They are convicting more a more women of murder and child abuse than before. Going with the convictions are going up not the instances.
More and more female teachers are known to be sexual abusers. That really shows me conceptions are changing.
Here is a thought. Is there such a thing as a sexual abuser that is not abusive in general. Using the female teacher as an example. I am willing to bet they are bullies in the class room.
Another thought I know of no abuser that abuses everyone.
Hi Faith,
That’s a very healthy way to approach this whole thing, imo. “Getting loud on the trail” is perfectly OK at times; that’s a good thing to realize since it’s not commonly accepted ‘truth’. Not many people have that kind of wisdom, centeredness (is that a word?), or strength to do that. It’s something that I’m just recently learning to do as well – so thanks for the example.
On another note about your last comment: One important point (to me at least) that I wanted to raise here: even though it’s not ethical for a therapist to diagnose someone else based on second-hand knowledge, I also (and I realize the contradictory nature of this) think that in cases of extreme abuse it’s CRITICAL for therapists to work with the client to ASSESS (not theorize about, but truly assess) whether or not the client (or the client’s children/spouse/career/etc…) might still be in danger. I can’t tell you how many people as adults have been told that the danger “is now just in your own mind”, or that “you’re an adult, your fear is irrational, just left over from times when you were younger”, etc…, who then went on based on that advice to downplay their own situation, only to have their own children abused by the same perpetrators who abused them. This seems to be particularly the case for female abusers who therapists seem to almost universally understimate and underacknowledge. I know one women who was almost completely undone by the discovery that her mother was sexually abusing her children, after years of having her rape (one occassion only) by her brother validated, but never really being believed about her years of on-going sexual abuse by her mother. She had been given years of those types of messages: “mothers don’t do that”, “you must have been exaggerating it in your imagination”, “abusers age-out; she can’t possibly still be a danger”, etc… None of which was true. The self-incrimination she suffered from afterwards, and the extreme actions she took because she was completely unprepared for this discovery and (over) reacted in ways that were harmful to her, left her with huge scars; scars that were completely unnecessary if ANYONE had thought to question the wisdom of “you’re an adult, the fear is now all in your own mind”.
There are many other types of similar situations where adult children can be harmed; they’re easy to avoid IF ONE CAN ONLY IDENTIFY THEM!
Birdfeeder,
One of the few times I took my therapist to task was when she used the term perceived danger. The cults I had to deal with kill people and still exist reasonable to assume they are still killing people.
The other thing is doing deep healing is dangerous in that the brain really needs to be pushed to the limit and this can be not safe. I have left therapy not understood about not walking into traffic.
Another danger is authority. I get very out of it and those in authority being not very bright and not knowing it get confused. I can even lose sight of how stupid they are. Not safe.
Jeffsong has a good example of another danger. He was at a robbery and he was a suspect as his behavior was strange. It was not strange he just was not scared as there was no real danger so he washed his car. I took someone to an emergency room and was told they would be on the operating table for at least two hours. So I flew a kite I had with me. Authorities freaked out. How could I fly a kite after going thought what I just did. For me it was pretty simple. Stabilize and transport. For me I was not doing the operation so I had nothing to do.
I do not happen to have a problem with adult children getting hurt. This caused its own issue. Therapist seem to think we need a safe place and they can crate it. I am MKULTA and over 200 pounds. I is safe pretty much where ever I go.
So much of this work is made harder by the concept that what is true in the now is true for everyone.
@Michael,
I’m with you on the “perceived danger” thing. Also the ‘you’re safe in my office’ thing. I’ve started to watch for red flag words that let me know someone is coming from an area I need to be careful around: ‘perceived’ is one, ‘irrational’ is another.
That story about jeffssong is illuminating. Not that you mentioned therapists in that context, but I think it’s really hard for therapists who aren’t survivors (who’ve never really experienced themselves in extreme &/or prolonged danger) to understand exactly why survivors feel unsafe in some situations. They assume it’s an ‘illogical’ feeling. I think it would never occurr to a non-survivor that someone who is completely innocent could become a suspect and genuinely be in danger because of their trauma/survivor reactions.
I now often say to the danger thing and lots of other “saying” “You must have lived a charmed life to believe that.”
Being different in any way is a danger in itself. It is weird I had long hair when I was young and it was a danger. Now people see me as the danger.
Hi, mcr.
Yes, that is how I received the conversations. Thanks for clarifying the point. :0)
~ Faith
I’ve found it really useful for therapists/docs to pseudo-diagnose my mother. She is, I believe, a high-functioning narcissist, and for most of my life I’ve heard people tell me how great she is and how lucky I was to be her daughter. Meanwhile, she was abusing me emotionally, verbally, and physically. Because the abuse was never visible, I thought I must be really screwed up and ungrateful.
My first therapist, after having a long conversation with my mother, told me she is “completely off the deep end.” a DID specialist I did a consult with told me, “We have a shrink term for people like that. We call them pathological narcissists.”
Finally, I felt sane. I didn’t make it up–other people could see it too. It let me finally deal with my mother’s abuse and escape the cycle of trying to death to get her to love me.
Faith, this makes perfect sense! It can be so hard to process why a person who was supposed to take care of you, didn’t. I had the same conversation with my therapist about my mother and we both firmly believe she is mentally ill. Like you, I needed some kind of context to work with in order to start healing.
Faith, I don’t find in what you wrote that neither you or your therapist is trying to diagnos anyone. I find that you are just trying to make sense of your mother’s odd behavior, and it seems reasonable to want to sort through this with your therapist. I’ve had therapist in the past tell me that someone close to me was “xyz”. That is unethical for them to put a label on someone, diagnos them without even having spoken with the individual first. It is ethical though for a therapist to help a client sort through their own issues, and guide them to a path of healing.
I was in a situation where one therapist labeled someone close to me as a sociopath. I was rather disturbed by this. So I investigated everything I could on the behaviors and actions of a sociopath. My therapist was wrong, and her views were tainted. I have had other therapists say another individual in my life sounded like they have the behaviors of someone who was narcistic. I didn’t feel the therapist was being unethical because they never clearly pointed out that so and so was narcistic, they just said the behaviors I shared that this person did lined up with someone who was narcistic. I had to search it out for myself.
A therapist should never state that an individual in your life is “xyz” label. They should help you sort through how the individuals behavior has effected your life, and help you find a way to cope with that, and move on so that you can heal.
[…] Comments « Therapists’ Opinions on People They Have Not Met […]
To be clear I was not basing my comments of just recent comments. Faith has written that her therapist believes her mother has schizophrenia often over the years. I am not saying she is changing her story to “consistent with” just that is not what she expressed before in my recollection.
She has also expressed that her therapist states coping is all that can be attained by anyone who has experienced trauma. I and experts in the treatment of trauma disagree. It is not the standard of the mental health field at this time.
I also wanted to point our that PTSD/DID is a mental illness as defined by the mental health field. I see it as an injury to the reptilian brain this does not change the mental health fields understanding.
The think about ethics is they work so well. There is nothing that can be accomplished with in the ethical confines of a therapeutic relationship.
Ethics are not morals, laws or standards. At one time the ethics of the mental health profession precluded them being and arm of law enforcement. The law has changed. They now are now part of law enforcement in that they are required to determine when a person is going to hurt themselves or others. Actually the law now is they have to report when they feel their is a danger. It is morphing into it is their responsibility. See current case of James Homes.
A therapist has to have a treatment plan in place and keep notes. This is not ethics this is standards. Standards which grew out of court cases lost. Another standard that has become ethics is a therapist can not lead a person to recover memories this comes from a court case lost in my area where it is reasonable to assume the person was involved in a cult and then recounted.
All professionals have an ethical obligation to not render opinions with out the required information. They are not allowed to guess as in the dx of any mental illness.
Ethics are not as limiting as one might think. A therapist might suggest than a person read something about say a dysfunctional family and the scapegoat theory or the attachment theory. Were the line is drawn is when the therapist says either theory is the answer or is applicable.
It is important to understand the therapeutic relationship is special. I communicate often with professionals and we throw about all sorts of theories and do not worry about the ethics of the therapeutic relationship as it is not one. That being said these communications are ethical in that the therapists are in our communication do not ever act as therapists. There are a few lapses in the excitement of our exchanges.
Just thinking…and I’m not at all a mental health expert (except for my therapuetic experiences as a client). The value of letting a person seeking to put their life back together and thrive after a childhood of unspeakable trauma by helping them see that they – the child- are not the one that was to blame, in the wrong, flawed, etc. is foundational to that person’s wholeness. (And by “whole” i mean functioning without torment and constant fear…and being able to be comfortable in their own skin…definitition could change as I become more “whole.”) That means they somehow need to see that the person or group who hurt them are the ones that are off (to say it more nicely than they deserve).
Okay – that’s me trying to put it just right. I can completely understand a therapist allowing a client/patient to use a diagnostic term to try to make sense of the “why” of the betrayal of someone who should have been a refuge instead of a monster. My T never uses a label, it’s just something I’ve noticed not something she’s stated. But sometimes someone I am talking to will say “i think your dad was…” and I flinch…because as an adult it seems to give him an excuse for u nspeakable things. But as a child…it helps a little because the child me can see better that we were not bad, stupid and made to be abused…the perp was messed up. The label doesn’t matter, it’s the conclusion about myself that matters.
I won’t get into therapist’s ethics because I wonder if we’re judging therapists without being in the room, about judging people who are not in their room. I wasn’t there, I don’t know what was said. So I can’t take part in the judgment. I do know sometimes I take things away from my therapy session that my T never said…and I’m in the room…and next time we clarify…because I take away what I need and sometimes it’s filtered through my stuff.
Mostly thinking out loud.
Thanks for always being willing to go the the tough places, Faith. I am so very thankful that this year’s cloud is lifting and light is coming. May it stay so.
Ruby
Hey Ruby,
“I wonder if we’re judging therapists.”
I am doing so as I believe that those that have experienced trauma deserve and need component therapists and try and give information so the person who is trying to heal can understand that they may not and not even know it.
Reality is most therapists need to be taught how to treat trauma. Reality is DID is not even taught in current curriculum and DID does not address trauma.
I know I often come off as negative. I am really championing the few therapists that can treat any kinda of trauma. The treatment of trauma like it or not us often just standard learn to cope and at best limited to sexual abuse.
Keep in mind it was not until 1980 that PTSD was thought to be caused by any thing other than combat. The mental health field was just as confident in there expertise then as they are now. So if your therapist has been out of school for 30 years there base training does not even include trauma.
“I believe that those that have experienced trauma deserve and need component therapists”
Hi Michael,
I know the above was a typo, but it made me laugh. I know that what you meant to say was that “those that have experienced trauma deserve COMPETENT therapists”. I laughed because I think part of the problem IS that most survivors get ‘component’ therapists… (OK, perhaps a bad joke, but it made me laugh).
I like it. Non-component therapy. I would would use complex psychoanalysis if I could define it.
When I first started this work and found out not everyone was not a multiple I thought System Analyst was pretty funny.