*** religious triggers ***
On my blog entry entitled Deeper Awareness of Healing from Child Abuse, a reader asked the following question.
So to come down to my question … I am extreemly wary of Christian therapists. My expectation is that they are going to to claim that if you can give all the hurt to God, forgive in His anem, then all will be healed and you will go on to live a full life, no hurts, love the people who did it to you. Over and over I have heard that ”Jesus heals everything”, ”give it all to Him and He will take it away”, ”release your unforgiveness and He will bring healing and love”. I know I’m mocking, but seriously! It leaves me feeling like the people who say these things have never experienced anything that deeply wounded them.
So how do you respon to this kind of comment? Are you open about your past with your Christian friends? How do you handle the balance between not being able to undo the past and it\’s scars and the whole ”Jesus heals all” attitude? ~ Lizzy
Let me start by addressing the Christian therapist issue. There is a difference between a “Christian therapist” and a therapist who is a Christian. My therapist is a Christian, but he is a psychologist first. This is what I needed. My issues were too complex for a “let’s pray you through this” kind of therapy. I needed sound psychotherapy to work through my many issues.
I actually do believe that God has the power to heal our deepest wounds. I believe this because I have experienced it! However, as you know from reading my blog, the healing has happened over a long period of time and with lots of work. God is not going to wave a magic wand and erase the pain. I believe that God is interested in more than taking the pain away – the healing process itself can build a deeper relationship between you and God as you gradually heal, and I think that well-meaning Christians often miss this aspect.
They also miss that if God waved a magic wand and instantly took my pain away, I would lose the ability to minister to others who have experienced similar pain. The fact that my healing has taken place gradually and with lots of ups and downs is relatable, even to those reading my blog who have no Christian faith. God loves those people as well, and my sharing my healing journey can encourage them in their healing as well. There is a bigger picture than just **my** healing.
I am very open about my past, but I typically talk about it in general terms, saying things like “I survived severe childhood abuse” rather than getting into specifics. I have no trouble talking about it and will get more specific if asked, but most people who have not been abused cannot handle hearing my stories. As long as the other person is respectful, I maintain this boundary. However, if someone tries to argue with me, I am not above sharing a particularly graphic experience to shut her up. LOL
As an example with the forgiveness piece (many people have trouble at first with my choice not to have a relationship with my mother) … I will ask if a woman is raped by a stranger while jogging in Central Park, is she forever obligated to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with her rapist after she forgives him? Of course, the other person says no. I ask isn’t what my mother did to me even worse than a one-time rape? Most people have no response to this.
This blog entry is getting too long. I will continue tomorrow…
Photo credit: Microsoft
“As an example with the forgiveness piece (many people have trouble at first with my choice not to have a relationship with my mother) … I will ask if a woman is raped by a stranger while jogging in Central Park, is she forever obligated to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with her rapist after she forgives him? ”
Hah, that’s exactly my tactic too!
I have to say, as an agnostic, raised atheist, in my experience people seem to mean all kinds of different things by “God” anyway. The “magic wand” version of God may make sense to some people, but if anyone tries to claim that that’s what someone else *should* believe despite knowing that they can’t or won’t, well I don’t think they’re a very good companion of any kind, let alone therapist. I wouldn’t mind being counselled by a therapist who was also a Christian, because I don’t think that leaving religion out of my therapy would necessarily go against their beliefs. I’ve known people who volunteer for nonreligious environmental and anti-poverty organisations, who believe that by making the world a better place in any way they are doing God’s work, but just don’t say so most of the time because they don’t feel the need. I have absolutely no capacity for any religious belief whatsoever, but I have no problem with that way of making sense of things either.
If someone comes up with a religious solution to your problem, despite knowing that you are not a believer or not a believer of the same type as themselves… I’d say, maybe they’re best avoided.
I use this same example as the reason I won’t attend a wedding where my mother is invited. I should not have to sit with my rapist at my niece’s wedding and make nice over dinner. I’m so glad that I am not alone in this feeling. It does not mean that I have not forgiven her or do not at least understand who she was and why she did what she did. It means that I do not want to be with someone whose very presence reminds me of the worst moments of my life. Nevermind that I have small daughters and my mother is unchanged in her ways.
Hi Faith,
I definitely think it is worse to be abused by someone who is supposed to be in a position of caring for your needs as a child.
I also believe there is no ‘instant fix,’ for the effects of trauma.
Your blog has certainly been encouraging to my own healing. I consider it my online support group.
I’ve come across some different types of religious people when it comes to talking about child abuse, or rape.
1) the overly ‘sorry for you’ type
2) the frighteningly angry at the abuser type
3) the blame the victim type
4) the ‘God is punishing you’ type
5) the ‘you don’t have faith, or enough faith’ type
6) the ‘you should forget all about it’ type
7) the ‘write you off as mentally ill’ type
8) the ‘use your diagnosis of PTSD against you’ type
9) the ‘I want to know more so I can gossip about it’ type
10) the ‘I’ll use your experiences to discredit you’ type
11) the ‘I’ll look down my nose at you’ type
12) the ‘you don’t have holy spirit’ type
There is also the type not listed above, who are genuinely kind and compassionate. The type that leaves your plan for healing up to you. The type that listens, even if they don’t understand. The type that keep coming back, even though I’m obviously not the most pleasant company in my worst times. The type that doesn’t make choices or decisions for you. The type that sticks up for you against opposition. The type that includes you into their own family. The type that try to add something uplifting, even if it doesn’t seem to help at the time. The type that go hunting for information that they think could be useful, even if it turns out it isn’t. The type that try to learn more about what you’re experiencing, even if it still doesn’t result in them understanding. The type that want the best for you, even if you don’t even know what that means. The type that call you their friend, before you’d ever call them yours.
I’ve met all types.
Funny though, how most of those types can be found in, or outside of organized religion.
Hi NoFear InLove,
I really liked your list. Made me think. Good point that they exist both inside and out of organized religion.
I have another type. My childhood church has been hijacked by political radicals who have associated themselves with various ‘human rights’ and labour initiatives, and stepped completely away from preaching the words of Christ. They have, for instance, currently authorized a Church boycott of any product coming out of Isreal. Soooo many causes they could adopt, but THIS is their crusade of choice. Not a single word about child abuse except as a byproduct of poverty. Their base has left, and is continuing to leave, in droves.
They’ve whitewashed the notion of ‘evil’ from their church, and then proceeded to line themselves up behind the Satans of the world, and give them the ‘poor baby’ treatment.
One thing I’ve noticed; those that are leading this movement are all hypocrits and cowards. I started to notice that they all too frequently speak the words of ‘forgiveness’, but only ever in terms of ‘we should all be gracious enough to forgive those people who’ve committed horrible sins’, but only ever in certain cases. And it’s NEVER in relation to those who’ve sinned and are now repentant; no, it’s always that we should unilaterally and proactively forgive those worst offenders who have no intention of stopping (but only those on one particular side of a certain ideological spectrum), with absolutely no words of compassion or concern for the victims nor any expectation of better behaviour on the part of the offender.
I started to trend these various leaders in television interviews & debates. In every single case they always lined up to defend the aggressors in any situation, under the Christian ‘appearing’ notion of forgiveness. Never any smidgeon of interest for the victims who don’t rear up and commit violence themselves in response. I started to realize that they are just cowards dressed up in ‘aren’t I a nice person?’ suits, who don’t understand that their faith requires them to be courageous and stand up against evil.
Far easier to side with the most aggressive person who then won’t take YOU out, and to leave the non-violent prone victims to ‘the Lord’s will’.
The church I grew up in was one of the places where I experienced goodness and kindness when young. Now it’s just a haven for abuse sympathizers.
I abhor those that do me a favor and forgive me or tell me God loves me anyway. Anyway being I am not a christian or what ever. A lot of people that give to charity are like that. They do it so they feel superior.
Just a side note the US gives less to other countries in % than other nations. For all our bragging.
Hi birdfeeder,
Glad you liked the list. I prefer the positives to the negatives. (smile).
“And it’s NEVER in relation to those who’ve sinned and are now repentant; no, it’s always that we should unilaterally and proactively forgive those worst offenders who have no intention of stopping (but only those on one particular side of a certain ideological spectrum), with absolutely no words of compassion or concern for the victims nor any expectation of better behaviour on the part of the offender.”
I’ve experienced what you mentioned above. This is what greatly concerns me about how cases of child abuse would be dealt with by people in a position of authority who have this mindset. It is totally unscriptural. It has turned into some sort of ‘old boys club’ (I’m sure girls have something similar, I’ve just never been that involved with girls), where they all stick up for one another, to save face, and whitewash whatever it is they’ve done, rather than really help out either the offender, or the victim. (I don’t think ‘offender and victim’ is always that clear cut. Sometimes there are issues that both need help to work through to create a workable relationship within the group.)
It ends up that they keep the worst offenders, who create such an unwelcoming environment that the gentler people are either in a state of hiding themselves silently, or they leave. The band of hard-hearted ones grows bigger as they are the ones that are accepted into the group.
—-
“I started to realize that they are just cowards dressed up in ‘aren’t I a nice person?’ suits, who don’t understand that their faith requires them to be courageous and stand up against evil.
Far easier to side with the most aggressive person who then won’t take YOU out, and to leave the non-violent prone victims to ‘the Lord’s will’. ”
I think your description fits with what I’ve experienced. I don’t understand it at all. They actually come across like I should feel sorry for the aggressive person. Do they really feel sorry for him? Or are they scared of him? Whatever it is it doesn’t help him or anyone. I do not like the “Wait on God” comment when the person saying it is in a position of authority to act.
It would really help if those that enforced the law knew what their responsibilities were and what they were not and those that are not enforcing the law knew they were not.
Then again it would help if those that enforced the law followed it.
I only discovered quite recently that *it is not required to forgive anyone who is not repentant.* Not even God does that. (“If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him.” ~Luke 17:3) The ‘if’ means it is conditional. Nobody ever taught me that.
It is not required that anyone forgives anyone. Nor is there a understandable definition of what repent means.
They way it works for me I get to the point where I do not care anymore about those that caused my trauma than those that have caused trauma to others.
“It is not required that anyone forgives anyone.”
Hi Michael,
It is a personal choice to forgive or not.
I’d like to give a bit of background on why the big deal about forgiveness for me, and perhaps for some others here.
From the Christian perspective as taken from the Bible, if one does not forgive others for their wrongdoings, then one will not be forgiven by God for one’s own wrongdoing. (I’m not talking about non-Christians here.) So it kinda means certain destruction later on.
What happened to the eye for an eye thing?
I am being facetious.
I know what happened to it. It is selectively used.
Hi Michael,
I don’t mind you being facetious. : )
I found where it says what happened to the eye for an eye thing:
Matthew 5:38, 39 (Jesus speaking to his disciples up in a mountain)
“YOU heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’
However, I say to YOU: Do not resist him that is wicked; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him.”
Levitcus 21:25 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
I could do this for the rest of my life. Enough people send me a tithe I will.
Hee hee. Many religions pay their ministers a salary and give them a capital ‘M.’ Interesting how Jehovah’s witnesses do not.
(The ‘not required to forgive’ was relating to Christian elders telling me to forgive someone who was clearly not sorry for what he had done.)
The definition of ‘repent’ that I go by is “to feel sincere regret over something you have done.”
Pretending to say sorry, and then a year later denying ever having done it, doesn’t fit the definition of ‘repent.’
Therefore the only one who knows if they have repented is them and so how can one decide if the other person has repented and therefore are worthy of forgiveness.
“Therefore the only one who knows if they have repented is them and so how can one decide if the other person has repented and therefore are worthy of forgiveness.”
Michael, that’s a very good question and now I feel bad, thinking “did I judge the man as unrepentant, and did I hardheartedly say he was just pretending to say sorry?”
Except that when I painfully go back and recall what the man said it was definititely not “I’m sorry for doing such and such to you.” It was a whole lot of other words that turned it back on me, and suggested that *he* was sorry that* I* thought he had done something which he hadn’t. I’m a simple girl. He is not a simple man.
I am aware that you don’t believe in the Bible being the word of God, and etc etc. I am just sharing that I do go by what the Bible says about a Christian forgiving their Christian brother if he comes to them and says he repents. Even if he does it again and again and again, each time coming back and saying I repent, then forgive him. I go by that. There are many in the congregation I used to meet with who do not go by that. That is their error, and they should know better, because it’s not what the religion itself teaches.
So the short answer is, if they tell me they’ve repented, then that’s how I know they have repented. It’s not up to me to judge. They know if they have repented, so who else can tell me about what’s inside of them?
The man who pretended to say sorry had me fooled overnight. I took until the next day to figure out he had not actually said he was sorry, even though he made it look like he had to the other elder present.
Hey NoFear InLove,
Not stomping on you.
I asked no question. It is a statement. So I am seeking no explanation.
“I only discovered quite recently that *it is not required to forgive anyone who is not repentant.* Not even God does that. (“If your brother commits a sin give him a rebuke, and if he repents forgive him.” ~Luke 17:3) The ‘if’ means it is conditional. Nobody ever taught me that.” ~ NoFearInLove
Yes — I used to point this out a lot to religious folks, particularly those who believe I need to forgive momster and reconcile with her when she takes no responsibility for her actions. (I rarely have to have these conversations any longer.)
I ask: If forgiveness is a blanket thing for everyone, regardless of whether they repent/take responsibility for their actions, why is there a hell? If God does not reconcile with sinners who are not repentant, then why I am expected to reconcile with those who are not repentant? Why is the standard higher for me than for God? They don’t have an answer for this.
Let me interject that I am using their terminology for these debates. I actually have a different view of what organized religions describe as sinners, hell, forgiveness, etc.
~ Faith
“If God does not reconcile with sinners who are not repentant, then why I am expected to reconcile with those who are not repentant? Why is the standard higher for me than for God? They don’t have an answer for this.” ~ Faith
Nicely said, I totally agree. My next one is the “Love your brother” bit. I just realized recently that in context it is talking about (true) Christian brothers, rather than a brother related by blood, and so I am having to rethink how to think about my own brother. I’m leaning toward the ‘just keep away from him’ idea. It seems like all those things we’re taught as kids have to be checked carefully and thrown out if they don’t fit.
It’s nice to think on how people have found counsellors, therapists etc who have positive and healthy approaches to dealing with trauma. And nice to come across people who search for truth and find it.
So, the premise of this conversation here is: ‘if my religion says I should forgive, then I should forgive, however, my religion also proposes hell which means forgiveness is only for those who repent; then I don’t need to forgive.’ If your abuser’s one day came to you and told you in tears that they’re extremely sorry and repentant, would you forgive then? would you even believe them?
I’m not talking here about the decision to forgive or not, I think that is a completely personal decision and no one but your own true self should tell what the better action is. What I’m trying to get at, is, try to think from your core about it. If you feel bad about not forgiving, think about WHY that makes you feel badly.
Why not try to decide for yourself? It seems like some of you are already doing this, but maybe you’re still looking for someone outside of yourself to tell you that it’s OK not to forgive. Is forgiveness something that you feel you need to do in order to feel peace? what does forgiveness even mean for you? (for YOU, not a definition the bible or someone gave you). I find that, when someone says something that really gets to me, it is because in some way I feel that they are right. Why is it even an issue when people tell you that you *should* forgive? do you believe them on some level?
I’m not inclined towards religion even though, or perhaps because, I was raised very religiously. However, I recognize that so many people get comfort and joy from it so there must be something to it. What I don’t like is that people will act blindly to the word of what religion says, and religion has very often been wrong.
It’s far easier to spot an outright blatant lie. It’s harder to extricate the truth from a more subtle lie tangled in a whole hunk of truth. Especially when that subtle lie has been ingrained through the early formative childhood years. I find it natural to want to forgive people, and hurtful when they just want to keep on hurting me. Yes I would forgive my abusers if that opportunity arose. That’s not me saying that anyone else must do what I do in any way at all. That’s just me expressing myself.
Hey No Fear in Love,
‘Yes I would forgive my abusers if that opportunity arose’
Funny thing about me is I could argue both sides convincingly forever, it’s also my undoing since I can’t ever make decisions because of the arguing both sides thing, but I’m sidetracking….
I’ve been thinking about this forgiveness thing, and if it’s important for you to forgive or not, it is about YOU and not about your abuser. We can’t ever know if someone is really repentant or not, some people just don’t express regret even though they feel it; and some others are very good actors and can convince you of anything without believing it themselves.
Frankly, I just don’t believe this premise that ‘if they repent I forgive’; you can’t know that they repent. Forgiving or not forgiving is about the own internal process. A person can be dead and you can forgive, it changes you, not them.
Hi Luna Sol,
“Frankly, I just don’t believe this premise that ‘if they repent I forgive’; you can’t know that they repent. Forgiving or not forgiving is about the own internal process. A person can be dead and you can forgive, it changes you, not them.”
Interesting… I think that what you’re calling forgiveness is the same as what I would call letting go of wrath and vengeance. That would make sense in that it makes a change in me, and is my own internal process. I can choose not to go beat someone up for hurting me. I can choose to avoid them so as not to feel angry and hurt every time I see them. In that way it would make me feel better.
I’ve seen my brother (now dead) go through childhood being told to apologize, and then being told vehemently that he was not sorry, and therefore was not forgiven. It was hard to tell when something went wrong in our house, who did it, and if targeted with blame, it was easy to believe that somehow without remembering the act at all, we must have done it because we were accused.
It was based on fear, and punishment, and not being believed for the things you knew were true. In effect being told that our own thoughts, feelings, and memories were false. And then being punished for it.
(Note, one of my parents was religious, and the other was not).
With time, and coming to terms with trusting what I know is true of myself, and having experience with many different people feeling sorry, or not, and saying so, or not, I have developed a reasonably trustworthy awareness of knowing if someone sincerely regrets hurting me. It comes out in their words and actions, and the feeling transmitted when in close quarters.
I haven’t come across anyone who has come up to me and actually said “I’m sorry,” when in fact they weren’t. It’s a hard thing to say. Same as things like I love you and I forgive you. From being in the position of hurting someone badly myself, I know it is very hard to say sorry. It puts me in a vulnerable and humble position. And painful to be told the person doesn’t believe what I say about my own feelings of regret. I find that I experience a physical feeling of love come out of my heart toward a person who forgives me. And I no longer feel angry in my own self about what they did.
There are people who haven’t needed to say a thing to me, it is written all over their face, and their body language, or it’s in the actions they take after the hurt has been done, which make it better. As a small example, a friend touches my arm after stepping on my toe. Bigger example, someone takes care of me in the present, after causing me great pain in the past.
I think of forgiving in the way of a debt that is owed. And anger flares up in me, quite naturally, in the presence of the person who doesn’t care at all that they’ve hurt me. To me forgiving is like cancelling the debt, and not feeling like they owe me anything any more. That seems to also come naturally to me when the person actually cares that they hurt me.
I’ve found that the cycle of reconciliation I’ve seen described by some religious writers (can’t find those articles at the moment) is what vibrates as true for me.
Loosely: sin(offense) / remorse / confession / repentance /restoration / forgiveness / reconciliation. The step of “sin” is where the person breaks with his/her community by offending against someone. “Reconciliation” is where they rejoin their community. The steps between are what both sides need to do to get there.
Here are a couple of links that are along the same lines, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.raptureready.com/rr-forgiveness.html
http://questions.org/attq/should-i-offer-forgiveness-without-repentance/
To each his/her own, of course, but I found this approach helpful.
(Woops – posted and forgot to string the links. At some point this post may show up twice.)
I’ve found that the cycle of reconciliation I’ve seen described by some religious writers (can’t find those articles at the moment) is what vibrates as true for me. It feels like natural law, like it organically makes sense. If it accords with Biblical teachings, so much the better.
Loosely the cycle is: sin(offense) / remorse / confession / repentance /restoration / forgiveness / reconciliation.
The step of “sin” is where the person breaks with his/her community by offending against someone. “Reconciliation” is where they rejoin their community. The steps between are what both sides need to do to get there.
Here are a couple of links that are along the same lines, in case anyone is interested:
raptureready (dot) com/rr-forgiveness (dot) html
questions (dot) org/attq/should-i-offer-forgiveness-without-repentance/
To each his/her own, of course, but I found this approach helpful.
So well said, Faith.
An interesting thing has occured with my faith as i have been working through healing for between 6-7 years (like you, some periods of healing work have been more intense than others and I took a 9 month break to just let it all settle and work with where I was). I seem to have been on a spiritual journey at the same time. I have gone from what might be termed “fundamental” to “seeker” meaning, I’ve gone from feeling like I had answers (perhaps even all of them – to my embarassment) to mostly having questions when it comes to God. But for me this has been a more honest place, also more compassionate.
As far as Christian therapists. I started the journey with a counselor that was very focused on healing through prayer and prayer alone, but found myself feeling guilty because I couldn’t make the memories stop after we prayerd. Finally, I switched to a therapist who focused on the therapy (she is also a woman of faith). I needed to take very small steps to keep from being totally destroyed by all that was flooding in, and she has helped me understand my brain, my psyche, ways to cope that don’t include dissociating, and how to function in real life. She’s walked through each memory I’ve shared (there are still some I’ve kept to myself, comfortably because I now have the tools to work with them on my own) and helped me come to peace in each one, but also to see when a memory was a place where a lie about me or the world or how God sees me was embedded through the abuse. She usually waits for me to see what is truth versus a lie, she doesn’t just tell me. Otherwise, it isn’t my truth. It has been arduous and not instant. But real.
I had a lot more to say, but deleted it. Faith said it better 🙂
Such a good question. Such a good answer. Thankful for this blog.
ruby
Hi, Ruby.
I would love to hear more if you care to share. I agree with so much of what you have shared here. This has been my experience as well. :0)
~ Faith
I think this is such an important issue, thank you for posting about it. Also I breathed a sigh of relief when you spoke about would people expect someone to spend Christmas etc with someone who has hurt them-the answer-no. I have had this experience recently with my family one a doctor! who expect me to be able to spend time in the company of someone who caused/triggers/increases my PTSD symptoms due to their treatment of me. I ask would the docotor advise her patient in the same position to spend a mealtime/christmas etc with the abuser-no I don’t think so. I am however still expected to overcome this situation and not be a problem or make a fuss, I am the one with the issue and the family do not stand up against this abusive behaviour-I think they are too scared to. I have to admit I also was told you just have to forgive and all will be okay. In reply I asked the person if they have ever had to forgive anything bad happening to them in their life? Also how do you forgive? The answer to both questions-no and silence.
Some people may or may not need a spiritual adviser. I do not communicate well with those that that KNOW I do. I do not. Nor do I need a book written by someone long ago in a language I can not read anymore than I need a book written by a science fiction writer. I no more accept the virgin birth than the alien thing. That god had sex with a woman is kinda perverse for me. The drinking the blood of someone and eating their body and calling it communion is whacked at best for me.
With the communion thing I am often told I do not understand. I reply “One of us does not. I am going it is you.”
I would exclude any therapist who preaches in a therapeutic relationship from having a licence as a mental health professional. I would require they advertise themselves for what they are. Honesty just seems to work. It is actually excluded in therapeutic ethics and practice and therefore excluded from sound psychoanalysis. . Few therapists are ethical and many do not have the intellectual capacity to keep up with the practice. Any therapist who does not offer the benefits of expressive therapy is not keeping up with their profession. It has gone beyond that some therapist are just better at what they do than others.
It has been my experience those who are Christian healers/therapists are more about telling you about you than being there as you discover you. More of the this is all you can ever hope for crowd or everyone has a different path but they all lead to the same place rubbish.
I need no ministry from any person. Those that need to minister seem to not accept they have no knowing I do not. I am assuming it makes them feel superior. To be clear Faith is not ministering to me. Nor do I minister to anyone.
I am a spiritual being having a human experience not a human who sometimes has spiritual experiences. I feel no need to live that everyone else is. I have no need to believe a god loves everyone. It brings me no where I want to be. I does not bring me to a “real” place.
I make marbles and give them away. People ascribe all sorts of power to them. They carry them to protect them etc. One went to Ireland and one to the great wall of china. Two were just given to a brother and sister in Kenya. Me I just make marble and give them away.
I am often called a shaman or asked if I am one. I just know how to listen is all. It is telling that this is worse now I do not cut my hair. I do not cut my hair as I do not like to spend the time and money.
I never abandon logic because someone else tells me I should. It really works out when people understand the word believe. Where it gets messed up is when the belief is about other people. “I believe all people can heal” is arrogant and no less so than all people need to face the sun every morning. For someone to say they can see a bigger pitcher is arrogant as it means someone else is seeing a smaller pitcher.
It is most odd and I do not understand it. The more I am about self the more I can act in accordance with any doctrine of behavior other than the dogma.
To be clear Faith is not ministering to me.
I have no idea about the faith of my therapist. She is a professional. That being said she and I both feel a presence come into the room. We do not need to talk about it. We just know. I do not know what this presence is nor does anyone else. I did ask if she was OK with books flying off the shelves and such and she said yes. I did experience that once after a week of abuse at a christian camp.
The night before my first memory of abuse came to the surface a white bird flew over my head. By the shape I it was an osprey. That early morning I saw a sky grazer which is pretty much a comet. I have had a blue heron lead me to a water fall. I do not understand these things. No one else does either. Where I saw the sky grazer is where I go to a art school which is important to me. A just is thing for me. Same as there are a pair of osprey that circle over head and catch fish where I swim.
I go with Christ did not have a Christ complex and stay away from those who minister in his name as they seem to have one.
“I ask isn’t what my mother did to me even worse than a one-time rape?”
I would honestly reply I have no idea and you do not either. No one does.
To be clear I am not anti people that are in religious groups. I have a good friend who is a Apostolic Lutheran who picked out his wife at a revival. Two of my best employees where preachers in Southern Baptists churches. I was a deacon for 10 years in a United Church of Christ.
I do know that every organization that includes children has a child abuse problem within the organization. I am not letting any of them slide and this includes the public school system.
___________
As fair as talking to anyone about my experiences of trauma it is no longer part of many relationships. It seemed to become a non-issue as my narrative became more complete. The wanting to share was really a wanting to know. I was able to do this thought the work of therapy.
I am messed up right now as I am processing/not processing the death of my twin. Other than my relationship with my therapist and in blogland it is just no a relevant issue. I no longer switch to deal with what is relevant tin the same way so there is no “shock” when I come back to my processing.
Hi, Michael.
“To be clear Faith is not ministering to me.”
“Ministering” is another term that has been misused within organized religion. I read a fabulous book called “The Purpose Driven Life” by Rick Warren, which is a Christian book. One of the purposes of the Christian life (according to Warren) is a ministry, which typically arises out of your deepest wounds. I really liked the imagery he provided when defining what he meant by ministry.
When organized religions use the term “ministry,” they typically mean evangelism. That is not what I mean by it. I see this blog as a way of offering the hope of healing to others by showing them my emotional wounds as I heal. My hope is that my healing process will benefit more than just me. That is what I mean by a “ministry.”
It’s OK if you don’t receive my blog by my definition of ministry. My blog is a gift to be received in whatever way you wish to receive it. No strings attached. :0)
~ Faith
Hi Faith,
I thought the word ‘minister’ originally meant servant or slave, and it got turned into a title and position over others. With a capital ‘M’ added.
Found these in Strong’s Concordance:
http://concordances.org/greek/1249.htm
1249 diákonos (from 1223 /diá, “thoroughly” and konis, “dust”) – properly, “thoroughly raise up dust by moving in a hurry, and so to minister”
This root (diakon-) is “probably connected with the verb diōkō, ‘to hasten after, pursue’ (perhaps originally said of a runner)” (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 147).]
I don’t suppose you are raising up a dust after Michael? (cough)
I have meet people who spend their life helping people. The ones that know they are doing it for themselves seem to be helpful. It is a hard dynamic. I once built a mailbox so a person who could not leave the house could get there mail. I never met them. The church I was in at the time thought it was a wonderful thing I did. Reality is I did it for me and the feeling I got. Simple as that.
What a great posts Faith.
Thanks.
m
Thank you for this post, Faith. It really hits the spot for me.
Jenny
I agree with all the comments above – this is a great post. Particularly the following:
“I am very open about my past, but I typically talk about it in general terms, saying things like “I survived severe childhood abuse” rather than getting into specifics. I have no trouble talking about it and will get more specific if asked, but most people who have not been abused cannot handle hearing my stories. As long as the other person is respectful, I maintain this boundary. However, if someone tries to argue with me, I am not above sharing a particularly graphic experience to shut her up. LOL
As an example with the forgiveness piece (many people have trouble at first with my choice not to have a relationship with my mother) … I will ask if a woman is raped by a stranger while jogging in Central Park, is she forever obligated to spend Thanksgiving and Christmas with her rapist after she forgives him? Of course, the other person says no. I ask isn’t what my mother did to me even worse than a one-time rape? Most people have no response to this.”
Re: “However, if someone tries to argue with me, I am not above sharing a particularly graphic experience to shut her up.” Both you and Michael have made similar kind of references in the past (Michael’s was more in terms of you need to have some understanding of how predators think in order to combat them properly). This is something I’ve always felt conflicted about – like I was being no better than my abuser if I did what you described. And yet I realize that thinking this way leaves both me and others open to abuse, because predators realize this about us and will use it to their advantage.
And I know that I got this way of looking at this from my religious instruction when young. Find it very difficult to get to a place where I’m able (and comfortable) doing that when necessary and not feeling like a horrible sinner for doing so. Almost like it’s preferable to let yourself be horribly abused and violated rather than commit the mortal sin of saying something nasty, or something difficult in a nasty way. I think it feels like if I ever once step over that line then I’m effectively becoming like my mother/monster and all predators and therefore justifiably open to any and all punishment that comes my way.
I know that, logically, the above sounds ludicrous (and is probably a level of ~ programming going on), but nevertheless I know I need to be able to use that tool (be more graphic to those who insist on being insensitive and condemning), but can’t seem to get past the feeling of being a truly horrible reprehensible person should I ever consider it (let alone actually do it).
Hope someone else has wrestled with this and able to overcome it (and willing to share tips and strategies).
Hey Birdfeeder,
“no better than my abuser if I did what you described.”
If you did not worry about it than you would be like your abusers. One hard thing to grasp is abusers think everyone else is stupid for not being like them.
I am good at being mean. Thing is I need it clear cut. I tell a person twice I have had enough and the next time I am going to have at them. So many times I have been told I did not believe you and now you can stop. Does not work that way with me.
I know have more of a range of being mean. Part of it is I no longer need to. Some how people no get it to back off. It is a just is thing. I think it has to do with I know my past and so that makes it easier to be me.
I am also OK with screwing up. I may be mean in a situation that I did not read correctly. That is OK I no longer have to be sure I am reading things right.
Faith,
You are a strong example for me to follow.
“I have no trouble talking about it and will get more specific if asked, but most people who have not been abused cannot handle hearing my stories. As long as the other person is respectful, I maintain this boundary. However, if someone tries to argue with me, I am not above sharing a particularly graphic experience to shut her up. LOL”
—
birdfeeder:
“Almost like it’s preferable to let yourself be horribly abused and violated rather than commit the mortal sin of saying something nasty, or something difficult in a nasty way. ”
—
In my childhood I remember the expression, “See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil.” It seemed to relate to the expression, “If you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all.” I used to live by an unspoken motto, “politeness at all costs.” (It worked to protect me at the time).
Now I see the expression from the opposite side, if I’ve seen and heard (or experienced) evil then it is going to be spoken. Saying nothing at all about someone else’s “not-niceness” can be counted as condoning their actions. I still haven’t mastered the change from living with “politeness at all costs.” It can carry a painful cost at times.
It is good to find a place where people *can* handle hearing the stories of abuse, and I thank you from the heart for your blog, Faith. It’s like a new home, with a new family.
@birdfeeder
I just view it as awareness-raising. If someone is effectively saying that nothing could be bad enough to prompt me to cut contact with a member of my family, they obviously have some kind of mental block; either they don’t see that that kind of thing goes on, or they don’t see that it could happen to someone they actually know. Either way, the reluctance of people like them to face facts is one of the major reasons that abuse doesn’t get spotted in the first place. I appreciate that it’s not nice to hear, and I would never force someone to participate in that kind of conversation, but if they start passing judgement they are absolutely fair game for a bit of education.
@Michael
“One hard thing to grasp is abusers think everyone else is stupid for not being like them.”
Or they believe that everyone else is. I encountered one who seemed to genuinely believe that all expressions of love, affection and conscience present in art and culture were just conventions, and that no-one actually feels those things. Really screwed with my mind, that did!
A majority of the abusers really thought they were doing me a favor. They seemed to think I was somehow like them. They had in their mind I should become like them.
Many abusers really think they have done nothing wrong.
Hi, Birdfeeder.
I think of dropping the “too much information (TMI) bomb” as a reality check. If someone can hear one of my stories and still continue in the same mindset of judgment, then s/he is CHOOSING to continue on in denial rather than ignorance. I have done my job in enlightening the judgmental person that life isn’t always as easy as that person might have personally experienced.
~ Faith
Thanks Faith, and Jan,
Your expressions are really helpful: the “TMI bomb”, and “fair game for a bit of education”. That really helped!
NoFear InLove,
I certainly hear you about the “see no evil, etc…” thing.
Funny thing – turns out that that’s NOT what that means. I recently learned from my FIL (who was an antiques dealer) that the expression comes from an old Oriental saying; there were originally four monkeys – they are found carved into a lintel over a famous temple door in Japan (I believe, may be somewhere in China).
They were: SEE no evil, SPEAK no evil, HEAR no evil, DO no evil. They were all intended to advise the learner not to PARTICIPATE in evil: don’t associate or pay attention to evil people; don’t gossip/slander/maligne, don’t listen to gossip, don’t commit evil, etc…
Interesting how things get turned around isn’t it!
That makes more sense of the expression! Thanks for that, birdfeeder.
As I’ve walked thru this journey with my girls, my faith has definitely evolved too. To be honest, I’m not sure what I’d call myself anymore. All the simple, flippant answers I learned in church certainly haven’t worked in the healing of my wife. God hasn’t just “zapped” my girls and all got better. In fact it feels more like I have carried my girls on so much of this journey myself when they didn’t feel like they could keep going. Part of me is angry with all the “worthless” promises I used to count on from the Bible, and yet part of me also acknowledges that everything that I do with my wife and so much of the healing that has taken place in the girls’ heart(s) is because I have followed biblical principles for loving my wife sacrificially.
I guess at this point I’m trying really hard not to throw out the baby with the bathwater when it comes to me and Christianity. I just got back from lunch with my uncle and he told me how much he has seen me change over the last couple years as I have helped my wife heals (he knows about the girls). I’ve HAD to change in order to be a help to the girls on their healing journey, but I used to be exactly like everyone else in church. I hope I can try to be understanding with those who are still like what I used to be just a few years ago, if that makes sense. My wife sees a Christian counselor who believes all the prayer stuff and yet she has still been great for all the girls. I have become more practical in my faith, loving my girls in every thing I say and do (at least that’s my goal), but kind of not doing much prayer, Bible reading, “claiming promises” stuff anymore. But just like AA, I think most people are hard-wired to want a “higher power” and so I try really hard not to undermine my girls’ faith, especially the ones who are ardent believers, because their faith still can unlock doors that my more practical faith, for all the progress it has brought to their life, can’t.
Rambling here. I don’t know. Maybe the key is don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater. Christianity has many good things to offer in spite of all the baggage that comes with those who claim to be followers.
Sam
Hi Sam,
” I’ve HAD to change in order to be a help to the girls on their healing journey, but I used to be exactly like everyone else in church. I hope I can try to be understanding with those who are still like what I used to be just a few years ago, if that makes sense. ”
It’s nice to know that people can and do change.
I have been thinking about people telling other people who they should be with and where they should be. Screwed up is what it is. I understand there is a different dynamic when it is relatives and mothers especially as far as most people are concerned.
I can go anywhere and be with anyone. Thing is I do not want to spend the energy to be with some people or in some places. I would not question anyone who did not want to be with someone or some place. It just would not occur to me. Now if they tell me I should not go places or be with certain people that would not be OK with me.
I think the not being in certain places or with certain people is a important dynamic. It often gets lost is what is being done or what is accomplished. I do wonder if it is at the root of many things with a person who as a child did not have any good choices.
I do know that a part of me wants to be in the cage beside their twin. We do not tell them “no you do not.”
Now although I can go anywhere I am wondering if it is not harder for me that most people. Harder as in takes more energy. I do think it is taking less and less energy for me to go anywhere.
I know I am more OK with “I do not know and no one else does either.” It is much about I do not need to explain. I do however want to know.
I have been trying to post my comments on the site… but they are not getting through? Is there something wrong on your side?
[…] Comments « Talking about Child Abuse with Religious People […]
Hello Faith… I have been trying to post a comment here all morning and something comes up to say it’s already posted here, but I can’t see it. Is there a reason for this? Thank you.
Hi, Panny.
Another reader left me a similar message. WordPress must have been experiencing some technical issues. Sorry about that!
~ Faith
Thank you Faith… have a good evening 🙂
In my healing journey Which doesn’t end until I do. LOL I have found that Forgivness to me isn’t about the monsters in my head it is about allowing my brain to not hate or waste emotion on my perps any longer. Forgivness is not about them it is about me not allowing them to poison my mind any further. I no longer alow them to rent space in my head by reliving all of the truma. Thinking that way only brought about the feeling of power over them. It has also allowed me to move forward and make some pretty tough decision I needed to make like leaving my marriage of 20 years, and ending a very emotionally abusive relationship.
Forving is for me not them. It doesn not mean what they did was right or that I will ever trust them again, I would be stupid too.
[…] my blog entry entitled, Talking about Child Abuse with Religious People, a reader posted the following comment: So, the premise of this conversation here is: ‘if my […]
I needed to see this post Faith… and I am so grateful for it. I have been so hurt by people’s arrogant, judgemental and fanatically religious attitudes towards me over the years! I cannot stand it anymore. So much so that I am no longer associating with the “lie” that is how I now perceive the general religious indoctrinations of today… and I stand by the words… “Christians kill their own wounded!”
I am now searching for true authenticity in all my relationships, including religious relationships. I now keep my relationship with my Maker between Him and I alone… no longer being part of a church that worships a “man-made Maker belonging to a particular man-made denomination that condemns and judges other denominations and people”… no longer the kind of religions that make excuses for really listening to the heart-song of their fellow humans in this world… making excuses that prevent them from being genuinely charitable in every sense of the word.
“Get over it… move on… put on a happy face – dance and be merry – forgive and forget!” They seem to be missing the whole point… even the Saviours disciples slept through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane… exactly what many so called religious people do today… they close their eyes and their ears to the suffering of others and make excuses condemning the sufferers so that they don’t have to take any blame, responsibility or feel guilt for their lack of true compassion and love. He took His suffering and overcame it to complete His important life’s purpose for not only His own progression, but for the progression of others. I believe that just like He had a unique purpose to fulfil in His lifetime that included suffering, so do many others of us today.
Through the suffering I have been “enduring and overcoming” all of my life since my childhood when I was severely abused by more than one abuser, I am gradually overcoming and reaching my full potential as far as my lifelong purpose is being revealed to me one day at a time. I am in the process of writing a book on my life and a number of smaller books to be used by therapists in therapy to help others who are on their post child-abuse journeys.
Yet still to this day, I have religious people telling me that I am faithless and good for nothing because I still cry so much and have episodes of anxiety and dissociation each and every day. I still react on trapped inner anger from my childhood and I still have many fears and struggles to overcome.
And what is worse, is that my therapist, (through transference and counter-transference) did all in her power to convert me from what she felt was a religion that has doomed me to hell! She was so convinced that she was the chosen one to “save me”, that she’d trap me in many therapy sessions and would go on and on and on about the evils of my religion as opposed to hers which would guarantee a one way ticket to Heaven! As a result I ended the therapy at the start of last year and have suffered excruciating emotional as well as physical pain ever since without any further therapy at all!
And the more I have suffered since then, the more I am being told by people who should love me without question, how faithless I am and how unworthy, etc. Not only have these fanatically religious people started withdrawing themselves from me, but I too from them, because what they are doing is only adding to my pain… repeating the episodes I had with my therapist over and over again! I honestly can’t take anymore! My trust for others is very damaged now and I am becoming more and more isolated from the world!
I am so tired of the “ugly lie” that religion is portraying in this world… what happened to the whole beautiful idea of “unconditional love”… how is it possible that today’s religions have lost and left that one most important TRUTH out of their belief systems.
I am aching for the answers… I am aching for “unconditional love and acceptance”… How dare anyone tell me I’m faithless and unworthy, just because I am suffering… I would not be alive today if that were true! I will NEVER give up, because I do believe my life has a purpose and that I am worthy of the task “life” has given to me which is soon to be fulfilled. I believe that my life’s work will bring healing and unconditional love to others and I therefore have to keep moving through the storms to get this work done.
Thank you Faith for giving me a voice… I am grateful to all who will understand what I’ve shared here.
Hey Panny,
I am moving more and more to my spirituality is an alone thing in that is what is important to me. What is important is what is in my heart not what others believe is in my heart or tell me what should be in my heart.
Sorry about the therapist who thought they were they were the chosen one. Good way to measure a therapist by how much they think it is all about them or what they know/believe. Good way to measure all people I think.
I am grateful for your understanding and encouraging comment Michael. I think this is how it’s supposed to be. I think we are supposed to form an intimately personal relationship with our Maker and not a relationship that is forced on us, or one we just accept and follow blindly. This feels right to me, but it also makes me sad that it has to be this way because of what I’ve been experiencing through the unloving, uncompassionate behaviours of so many of the people who are so fanatically and boastfully connected to some of the many worldly religions in existence today.
WordPress is still not posting my comment… I’ve even edited it and tried and tried again… but it’s not working. I hope it won’t suddenly post all versions of my comment all at once… I’m fed up that I can’t contribute here as this blog is a revelation to me and already proving so helpful… I even wrote a whole new chapter in my book becasue of things I learned here… it will post this little comment, but not the oen I originally wrote! So frustrating!
Faith… is there a way of getting in contact with you… I’d like to use one or two quotes from your work here in my book… thank you… Love and grattitude to you and all who have contributed and helped me to find meaning here in our shared experiences.
Hi, Panny.
I found your comment in the moderator queue and published it. Nevertheless, I am still not seeing it! I’ll post it myself below.
~ Faith
Panny’s comment:
I needed to see this post Faith… and I am so grateful for it. I have been so hurt by people’s arrogant, judgemental and fanatically religious attitudes towards me over the years! I cannot stand it anymore. So much so that I am no longer associating with the “lie” that is how I now perceive the general religious indoctrinations of today… and I stand by the words… “Christians kill their own wounded!”
I am now searching for true authenticity in all my relationships, including religious relationships. I now keep my relationship with my Maker between Him and I alone… no longer being part of a church that worships a “man-made Maker belonging to a particular man-made denomination that condemns and judges other denominations and people”… no longer the kind of religions that make excuses for really listening to the heart-song of their fellow humans in this world… making excuses that prevent them from being genuinely charitable in every sense of the word.
“Get over it… move on… put on a happy face – dance and be merry – forgive and forget!” They seem to be missing the whole point… even the Saviours disciples slept through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane… exactly what many so called religious people do today… they close their eyes and their ears to the suffering of others and make excuses condemning the sufferers so that they don’t have to take any blame, responsibility or feel guilt for their lack of true compassion and love. He took His suffering and overcame it to complete His important life’s purpose for not only His own progression, but for the progression of others. I believe that just like He had a unique purpose to fulfil in His lifetime that included suffering, so do many others of us today.
Through the suffering I have been “enduring and overcoming” all of my life since my childhood when I was severely abused by more than one abuser, I am gradually overcoming and reaching my full potential as far as my lifelong purpose is being revealed to me one day at a time. I am in the process of writing a book on my life and a number of smaller books to be used by therapists in therapy to help others who are on their post child-abuse journeys.
Yet still to this day, I have religious people telling me that I am faithless and good for nothing because I still cry so much and have episodes of anxiety and dissociation each and every day. I still react on trapped inner anger from my childhood and I still have many fears and struggles to overcome.
And what is worse, is that my therapist, (through transference and counter-transference) did all in her power to convert me from what she felt was a religion that has doomed me to hell! She was so convinced that she was the chosen one to “save me”, that she’d trap me in many therapy sessions and would go on and on and on about the evils of my religion as opposed to hers which would guarantee a one way ticket to Heaven! As a result I ended the therapy at the start of last year and have suffered excruciating emotional as well as physical pain ever since without any further therapy at all!
And the more I have suffered since then, the more I am being told by people who should love me without question, how faithless I am and how unworthy, etc. Not only have these fanatically religious people started withdrawing themselves from me, but I too from them, because what they are doing is only adding to my pain… repeating the episodes I had with my therapist over and over again! I honestly can’t take anymore! My trust for others is very damaged now and I am becoming more and more isolated from the world!
I am so tired of the “ugly lie” that religion is portraying in this world… what happened to the whole beautiful idea of “unconditional love”… how is it possible that today’s religions have lost and left that one most important TRUTH out of their belief systems.
I am aching for the answers… I am aching for “unconditional love and acceptance”… How dare anyone tell me I’m faithless and unworthy, just because I am suffering… I would not be alive today if that were true! I will NEVER give up, because I do believe my life has a purpose and that I am worthy of the task “life” has given to me which is soon to be fulfilled. I believe that my life’s work will bring healing and unconditional love to others and I therefore have to keep moving through the storms to get this work done.
Thank you Faith for giving me a voice… I am grateful to all who will understand what I’ve shared here.
Why did God allow this? (or that – or something else).
To teach you.
Question is (again): what lessons did you learn?
I don’t believe in “the Devil” per se. Just another part of God and his own way of teaching us – lots of things. Involving loss and pain and the intransigence of things.
The last lesson you learn (I think) is how to let go of your life. That’s a hard one to learn, and most people refuse to even think about it. Hard enough losing the ones you’ve loved.
And I’ve learned a lot more by my abuse than I would have had having a ‘normal’ loving life the way some would. I sort of pity them: mostly ignorant shallow and sorely naive persons.
In my opinion, they get to go another round again. Part of my reincarnation belief. As for ‘myself’ – well some go on, some stay here.
Part of a multiple soul system, I fear, LOL’ing. Because in infinity – this is less than the blink of an eye.
Ditto goes for our lifetime(s).
Thank you Faith… I see my comment twice here now, but at least it’s here. I would still like to be able to get hold of you so that I can use some of your quotes in my book and would like to know how to reference them to point towards your work. Thank you once again.
Hi, Panny.
My life isn’t going to slow down enough to catch up on emails for a few more weeks due to my work schedule. Yes, you may quote from my blog. You can provide a reference in the book to the blog. :0)
~ Faith
Thank you Faith…
What you are doing on this blog is phenomenal, because it is of great interest and importance to people like me. The emotional struggles and pain is so overwhelming and deep sometimes and it’s very eye-opening and comforting to find out that there are others out there who truly understand how ‘this’ feels.
Shared experience helps one to see their “self” with a greater understanding and acceptance. One can only work on problems in a conscious way if they know and understand what the problems are first.
God bless you in all that you do as well as all the people who are reaching out here.
Love,
Panny
Hi, Panny.
Thanks for your message. :0)
I finally got through the spam queue, and you had a bunch of messages in there. I don’t know why that happened to you, but I have “unspammed” all of them, so I **hope** you will have no more problems with posting. :0)
~ Faith
Thank you Faith… I appreciate your help. Have a lovely evening.