I have shared many times that Isurvive, a message board for child abuse survivors, helped get me through healing from child abuse. I have not been active on the site for several years – pretty much since I started the blog. I only have so many hours in the day to spend online, and the blog took up too much time for me to stay active over there.
While I was still active, I pushed for a separate forum for ritual abuse survivors. I wasn’t really sure where to post memories of being buried alive, etc. Ritual abuse is its own animal and does not really fit into any other category of abuse. The board owner at that time came up with the label of “ritualized abuse” because she wanted to encompass not only cult abuse but also systematic abuse by one abuser … and the Ritualized Abuse forum was born.
I have also shared that I continue to be active with Isurvive behind the scenes. I learned through the grapevine that several members were posting over there (some who also read my blog) but that there wasn’t anyone posting who was farther along in healing. While Isurvive has great directors and moderators, my understanding is that none of them experienced ritual abuse. (My apologies if I am wrong about this.)
So, I have decided to become active again in the Ritualized Abuse forum only. I am hoping to add the perspective of someone farther along in healing so those who are posting there can have hope of surviving the healing process. Also, I want the members to know that at least one person (1) can handle reading about the dark stuff; and (2) has been there (maybe not with the exact form of abuse but in the ballpark). I hope that my experience, both in childhood and in healing, will bring an added level of hope and healing over there.
I am announcing this here in case my active involvement in that forum will make participating in that forum more appealing to any of my readers. It’s tough to open up and talk about ritual abuse in a forum filled with strangers. Perhaps having a friendly face over there will make this easier.
If you do decide to post over there and you also post comments on my blog, please let me know the cross-reference name (unless you prefer to keep this private). That way, I’ll know that the two of you are the same person.
Image credit: Isurvive.org
Blooming Lotus 
I checked out Isurvive and a forum for ritual abuse was not listed.
Hi, Michael.
It’s not a “public forum,” which means that you won’t see it until you become a member and log on using your member name. This is to protect members from lurkers. I think there are other forums that are this way, too. Several forums are “public” so people can see what the site is like, but to protect members’ privacy, you’ll have to sign up as a member to access it.
~ Faith
What a great idea Faith. Your success and perseverance are so inspirational (I know that sounds kind of cheesy, but I cannot say it any other way) You will be an amazing new component to an already great resource and healing forum.
As a cyber friend, I just want to remind you of maintaining boundaries for yourself. You have mentioned many times how you get in over your head with helping too deeply or too much and find yourself depleted. This new level of participation can provide a perfect practice ground for boundary healing for you.. and I know you are aware of it… just mentioning it out of concern and as a reminder.
Good on ya Faith. You continue to amaze!
Peace,
mia
Hi, Mia.
I just published a blog entry about boundaries and then read your comment. Very timely!
Yes, boundaries are key. I won’t “live” over there like I used to do when I was relying on the members over there to help me get through the day. The plan is to check in daily or every other day. I am viewing it as an extension of what I do here. When my life is relatively normal, both are great ways to add value to others and also empower myself. (I get as much as I give from interacting with fellow survivors.)
My issue right now is playing catch up. So many things in my offline life were put on hold while I was sick, so I haven’t had much time to blog this week, although I think this is blog entry #3 this week, so that’s improvement!
~ Faith
“Ritual abuse is its own animal and does not really fit into any other category of abuse.”
I have coined the phrase “different in a meaningful way” in an attempt to stay away from the worse than.
Within the cult world the cults are different in meaningful ways. Within each cult what the members and those traumatized by the members experience is different in a meaningful way. Not all members within a cult will be involved in the killing of children. There seems to be a progression and some cult members seem to stop at certain points.
With the 5 cults/sects I had to deal with he cult members can not kill their child without permission and it seems that they could not torture their child to death for longer than 6 months. A child not in the cult was totally expendable if given our bought by the cult member could be killed over years if that is what was wanted.
If a owned child was deemed a risk to the cult than that child had to be killed.
A family could decided to have their child killed quickly.
I have communicated with some who knew of international cults. I only had one experience with a cult member from another country so I have limited knowledge of that.
I understand that other than for one death which was really an assassination of an owned child by me, a half hearted attempt to kill me and one attempt to contact me on the day I graduated from high school my contact with cults ended when I was 13. I have no idea about how cults work with children after that age other than what I observed in some ceremonies. Many children and people left during days of activities. A child might be abused in the beginning of an activity and never know some of us did not get to leave.
I had what I knew to be my family killed by the time I was 3. Who I knew to be my brother lived in cages in a basement. until he was killed when I was 2 1/2. I lived in a closet until I was 3 1/2. (We did come out to be cleaned up and abused and tortured. I was brought out of the closet to be abused tortured and programmed.
And for me there is the MKULTA schools and camps.
Pretty much I was angered when I read. “maybe not with the exact form of abuse but in the ballpark.) Part of it is this is when I was with a 10 year old that was killed when I was 12 this time of year. I did not know until this morning that his mother knew. We had a nice meal and a party for his birthday. I was told I had to protect him and I could not. I told him all we had to do is do what we were told and we would be OK and I was wrong he was killed. This happened to be a quick death and was the first time anyone I knew was killed when I did not know for a long time they were going to die.
The mother was putting the blame on me for his death with the concept I was supposed to protect him.
I think it is important to understand that all of us have limited knowledge and to understand that our experiences my be different in meaningful ways even within the Ritual Abuse Category.
Hi, Michael.
I really like this:
“I have coined the phrase “different in a meaningful way” in an attempt to stay away from the worse than.”
Re: the part that angered you — Yeah, I wrestled with how to word what I wanted to say. My understanding (and I could be wrong) is that few people over at Isurvive right now in the RA forum have been through ritual abuse AND are active in the capacity of saying, “I’ve been through RA and survived it. You can, too.” Most of the active ones are in the stage of “Can I survive this?,” which I remember all too well.
As a result, my understanding is that many of the people offering support in the RA forum who are in a place of healing long enough to know they are going to be OK haven’t actually endured RA. That was a motivator for me to go active again over there. For me (and I suspect many others), hearing “you can survive this” carries more weight when it is coming from someone who has actually survived RA. While you and I have been through different forms of RA (I have no MKULTRA experience), you telling me that RA is survivable carries much more weight than someone who has not endured RA. Does that make sense?
~ Faith
This is kind of an aside, but I don’t think I can agree with the idea of healing as linear – as something where you can be ‘farther along’. For me that would be a bit like saying that you are ‘farther along’ with life. Healing is for me as varied in its forms as living, just as (perhaps as Michael says) ritual abuse is as horrifically varied in its manifestations and how we experienced it. I am not wishing to diminish the value of survivors sharing, but sharing on a forum I think is very different to sharing a blog (where the writer is a leader, an initiator and has, if you like, the final word). On a forum, there is more equality amongst the voices, it is a place for mutual sharing and should be so…
Hey Ax,
I am with you on the father along thing. Faith is not guilty of this; I have had people tell me they know more than I do as they have been doing it for 30 years.
I recently came to understand that my healing began in the womb. It was disrespectful for some of us to say that we did not. That made a big difference to me/us as a multiple.
There is a body of knowledge with regards to trauma and its effects. It is changing so rapidly that it is impossible to keep up. Extreme trauma is lagging in my opinion due to the fact that it is treated as the same only a little bit different.
Not only are my experiences and the results different in a meaningful way so is what I must do to heal.
I talked to a psychologist the hot tub the other day. She worked in a public school system. If you tell her your birth order and nationality she will have reached the level of understanding of which she is capable.
I have been to Mclean’s hospital which is reputed to be one of the best in the world. Few there have a current understanding of what is known and most are harmful if you have experiences that are outside of the norm.
In blogland I ran across the first person who has to heal from water boarding. It was her father so I really know nothing about that. It is not like drowning.
Hi, A x.
I am not arrogant enough to believe that I am “over” the RA or ever will be. I also agree that healing is not linear. Michael in particular (but others, too) have taught me that different people’s healing processes look different. I do think the big picture is the same (finding a way to love and accept yourself), but the steps each person takes to get there are different. Because of this, one cannot use a measuring stick against another to say that one is “farther along” than another.
That being said, I do think there is a line (for lack of a better word) that a survivor crosses over that I don’t know how to label. On one side of the line is where a survivor is in the place of wrestling with whether or not he was abused at all, whether the abuse was “that bad,” whether the abuse “qualifies” as abuse (or, in this case, ritual abuse), and whether or not he can survive the process. When the survivor crosses this line, he no longer doubts he was abused, recognizes that the abuse was “that bad,” either settles on a label or decides that labels are irrelevant, and knows at a heart level that the healing process is survivable.
There isn’t a particular moment when a survivor crosses that line for good. I spent years going over and back, over and back, over and back. However, I am now solidly on the other side of the line. I will likely never fully heal from every RA wound, but I am solid in accepting my history and knowing at a heart level that I am going to be OK.
One sad reality of Isurvive, as well as many other healing resources, is that once a member crosses that line for good, she tends to move on. As my T told me, I have absolutely no responsibility to stay in the survivor community when I cross that line. Putting that part of your life behind you and living your life is a wonderful choice and gift that survivors give to themselves.
That being said, it means that the vast majority of the Isurvive members are going be on the other side of the line. They can encourage one another, but sometimes you need to hear from someone on the other side of the line that healing really is possible. That is what I am hoping to bring to the RA forum.
I don’t plan to run the forum, tell people what to do, take it over, or whatever. I just want to make myself available to say, “I have been on the other side of the line and questioned whether it was possible to cross over. It is. I know because I have done it.”
If you or anyone else have a better word than “the line,” I’d love to hear it and start using a more descriptive term. I am not overly wild about calling it “the line,” but I hope I have explained the concept I am trying to define. :0)
~ Faith
Faith
It may have come to your attention that I have left the RA forum at isurvive since you arrived. I can’t address the reasons why fully here, because they belong to isurvive, and are certainly not your fault or mine. I won’t be posting here either for a while.
Good luck with everything.
Hi, A x.
No, I haven’t been over to Isurvive since yesterday morning when my son started throwing up from a stomach virus. :0(
I am sorry that you feel the need to leave there and take a break from here, but I respect your decision and wish you well. I will definitely miss you around here.
I am glad that I am not the reason you are leaving Isurvive. I would feel awful if I did something to run someone off!
~ Faith
Being blunt. You have not recounted many experiences that many experienced in cults. I would characterize the experiences you have described thus far as being on the fringe of cult activities. I think you do not understand that you were on the fringe as that is the only place you have been.
I do not consider you an expert on cults nor healing from cults. I do not find you an expert other than on your way which I respect.
This is not a worse than thing it is a different in a meaningful way.
Nor do I consider your experience in one therapeutic experience as a broad base of knowledge.
Pretty much applying your experiences to all others the way you are is just not credible and I find disrespectful.
I am not angry in the least. I accept the limits of your experience and understanding. It does not seem that you do. It seems to me you are preaching/teaching/instructing rather than sharing and on a subject that you have very limited knowledge.
Hi, Michael.
I just saw your message as I was halfway through a blog entry for Thursday. (Yes, I have the blog covered through Thursday this week!)
In the Thursday blog entry, I am trying to explain the concept I am trying to get across more clearly and seek input from you and all of the other readers about what terminology to use. I think the **concept** I am trying to get across keeps getting lost in the terminology, and I feel like I keep trying to say the thing over and over again, but different readers keep hearing something different from what I am trying to say. Perhaps nailing down the terminology will help.
I don’t claim to be an expert on cult abuse (nor do I want to be). I am not trying to take over, teach, preach, or whatever about cult abuse. I have been through some crappy stuff that is outside of the mainstream. I think there is value when someone who has been through non-mainstream crappy stuff offers to be supportive of another person who has been through non-mainstream crappy stuff.
My experience was that when someone tried to tell me it’s going to be OK but had no experience with non-mainstream crappy stuff, I had a tougher time believing it was going to be OK because that person didn’t understand what it was like to go through non-mainstream crappy stuff. However, when someone had been through non-mainstream crappy stuff, even if it wasn’t like MY non-mainstream crappy stuff, and told me it was going to be OK, I was better able to receive the help because the person actually knew what it was like to go through non-mainstream crappy stuff.
Because this was helpful for me, I suspect it will also be helpful for **some** ritual abuse survivors. That was all I was trying to say.
I’ll explain further in the Thursday blog entry. I truly hope I can nail down the terminology because I really do think there is value in survivors helping other survivors, and there is value in talking with someone who “gets it” on some level who can offer hope because he or she has survived it. I am getting really frustrated that the words aren’t coming to me, and we (not just you and me but others as well seem to keep going around in the same circle. I don’t know why it is so hard for me to communicate this in a way that other can “hear” what I am trying to say. :0(
~ Faith
Hey Faith,
It is a circle. The circle will exist until I believe your experiences are similar for most people who experienced trauma by cults or you believe they are not.
For me to change my understanding I would need to ignore much of what I and others experienced. I would have to become ignorant of how cults work.
I hear what you are saying. I believe you are incorrect. I believe you are incorrect not by a lack of logic rather a lack of information about cult activity in general. .
I answered your comment more fully on my blog. It is not appropriate for this blog.
Not being flip here I wonder if you can read about others trauma with no problem as you just assume it is similar to yours.
From what I and others know of cults your experience could be seen as mainstream for the cults.
Although seeing people tortured to death over years is the hardest for me to deal with I would not know if it was worse. I will give an example.
The start of some cult involvement is often the father being drunk and then a daughter performing oral sex on him. Seen it many times. It is often the start of a ceremony just as fake deaths are. Again seen that one many times. This is how members are recruited that are not multi-generational. If the father balks often by giving up drinking forever than their cult involvement is over. How devastating is this? I really have no idea. Did not experience that. I know of one father who was crushed spirituality and never recovered. So he and his daughter had very fringe cult experience.I do not know which is worse I only know how it is for me.
“I had a tougher time believing it was going to be OK because that person didn’t understand what it was like to go through non-mainstream crappy stuff. However, when someone had been through non-mainstream crappy stuff, even if it wasn’t like MY non-mainstream crappy stuff, and told me it was going to be OK, I was better able to receive the help because the person actually knew what it was like to go through non-mainstream crappy stuff.”
i feel the same way about when you say all I have to do is love myself. You have not been through my non-mainstream crappy stuff yet think it is the same. Very close to just get over it. (Note: I am a multiple and the MKUTRA experience is not included in this just the cults)
Preempting here. We can not agree to disagree unless you get some more information on cult activity. You do not have had to live it. You need to know what they do.
Hi, Michael.
I think the problem is that you and I are going around on two different circles, and I don’t want us to drive each other crazy going around and around. I think you know how much I respect you, and I know how much you respect me. I want to end the circles. :0)
We are trying to make two completely different points. I will explain my circle more on Thursday, so we can wait to discuss my circle then. Let’s just focus on yours…
What I am hearing from you is that you want me to “get” that my experiences, while awful, are nowhere near the degree of what some others have experience. I fully acknowledge this. If have not done so previously, I apologize for this and want to go “on record” (yeah, I know — it’s the lawyer in me LOL) that I know that much, much worse has been experienced by others through cult abuse, MKULTRA, and other forms. (Truddhi Chase’s experiences didn’t really fit under any of those labels, and her experiences were unbelievably traumatizing.)
One HUGE mitigating factor I had was that my father was not in a cult, and my mother’s role was basically a delivery service. People who grew up with cult parents never got any reprieve from cult abuse, so they had less of an opportunity for “normal” development. While my childhood was far from “normal,” I had the advantage of **some** normal development.
Another HUGE mitigating factor I had was my sister, from whom I experienced pure love. I do believe my aftereffects would be much worse if I had been an only child. I do think the umbrella of our relationship spared me from many aftereffects and laid a foundation upon which to begin healing that some child abuse survivors don’t have the advantage of.
I did read your post on your blog to me. No, I don’t think you are an exception. It saddens me to know that probably thousands of people can relate to your experiences. I am grateful that I cannot.
The other piece of this issue that might clear up a few things is that the “Ritualized Abuse” forum over at Isurvive is not intended to be limited to cult abuse. The Director at the time wrestled with the wording of the forum name and settled upon “Ritualized Abuse” to make it inclusive. She wanted to include any non-mainstream abuse, such as one abuser who harms a child in a ritualized manner (versus group abuse). Basically, if a survivor’s abuse doesn’t fall under verbal, emotional, physical, or sexual abuse, this is the catch-all forum.
I apologize if I came across as a know-it-all who was swooping in to save the world. I also see your point about my wording. What I am hoping to do is offer hope — not guarantee that any one particular person can heal but that the hope of healing exists. For me, interacting with people who were in a better place than I was helped give me hope that maybe I could reach that place, too. If even one person benefits from my presence there, I would like to offer it. This is paying forward what others did for me.
I also admit that I have been a bit off my game of late. I have a lot going on in my offline life and just wanted to get a blog entry posted. It’s not always easy communicating exactly what you want to say in writing, and I am not always going to get it right the first time.
I hope you know (and I think you do) that my heart is usually in the right place even when my words miss the mark. :0)
~ Faith
Very glad you will be at isurvive.
You have helped us a lot.
You give hope and help explain things & that helps.
Thank you Faith.
I may be wrong. i believe that face to face this would take minutes or maybe seconds to work out.
It is very much like a lawyer who says “That being said …” Which means if you accept the false facts or assumptions that I just stated what follows will make sense. Note: I love dealing with lawyers they think they are the smartest person in the room and that gives me an advantage they can not overcome. Big Smile.
I too am a lucky one as my family was not in the cult. They sold me to MKULTA as a baby thinking that it would be an advantage. Once I was in they did not have the courage to get me out. They were lied to by the behavioral scientists and the cults. The behavioral scientists really believed they were capable of creating a super being. All they did was take the best of the best. I so love the children in MKULTRA. It was a special group.
i was lucky as summers were for the most part free of being around abusers. I was lucky that I moved when I was 14. MKULTRA is an advantage in many ways. The cult left me alone when I took out 5 men at age 12. As horrible as it is when I shot a man from 300′ with an open sight it gave me respect. I may have killed a boy in a fight when I was 8. It was at the MKULTA facility and it was in an exercise where I was the target. It was just instinct. I do not know if he died. I threw him 10′ into a wall on adrenaline and he did not come back to the MKULTA facility. It made everyone look at me in a different way. I was always the smallest due to the trauma delaying my growth.
i do not have the soul of a killer. I have the mind of one and the cults are aware of this. They can not conceive I do not have the soul of a killer. I so wish I did not have the mind and knowledge.
It is not so much the worse thing just that it is different. A person who has had any experiences similar to mine will find your way harmful in my opinion. They will fail and then blame themselves. Some will be helped and others need to do different things. Some of us start at a meaningful different point.
Pretty much you can not give hope to some and I more want them to know that if they do not find hope in your experience than it is not them. Mostly I want them to keep looking. And most of all I want them to find it.
Truddhi Chase was treated by a hypnotherapist. That likely would have killed me I was often hypnotized. I learned to not be totally hypnotized and still not flinch when the stuck needles in me to see if I was “under” it is weird over the last few years i have felt the needles. Around the eyes is the worst. It is a backwards thing. It feels like the needle is painful when pulled out.
Staying present is wrong wrong wrong for a multiple anything like me. It is the opposite. Some professionals now get that it is not about dissociation for some people. I had to discover that on my own. Just has I had to discover this PTSD body should not be going what almost everyone believes it should be doing.
To be honest I do not even want to go to Isurive. I have had enough of being told I am the same and all I need to do is hear. That I am the one that does not understand when what is being said does not apply and it makes zero sense to think that it does.
To be clear I am still one of the lucky ones beyond I was not killed. I am healing and will completely heal. I would not have if I did not understand I was different not better or worse in a meaningful way. It was hard to be on the outside of what ever side there was including those how have experienced trauma. I do not portend to speak for any one who is anywhere near the same as me I just speak to them.
The fundamentals of healing from trauma is there are no fundamentals. I was all about you needed a therapist. Come to find out I needed one others did not.
Hi, Michael.
Yes, if we were face-to-face, we probably would work this out within minutes. :0)
One thing that occurred me to is that you are trying to communicate to me (I think) that I am unable to be helpful to **all** survivors, and I am saying that I think I can help **some** survivors by going active again in the RA forum. Some of the healing tools you talked about in this comment (such as staying present) is new information to me, and that is perhaps why mainstream therapy is not helpful for some multiples. The standard line (as I am sure you are painfully aware) is an emphasis on staying present for healing from PTSD and, by extension, DID. I was unaware that it wasn’t helpful for multiples, but now that you said that, it makes sense why yoga wouldn’t be helpful to you since it is all about staying present. Thanks for educating me on this. :0)
Isurvive might be a good place for you, or it might not be. It is a peer support board, so it is more about someone posting that he or she is struggling with X, Y, Z or recovered a memory about X, Y, or Z. Others post messages of support, saying they are here for you, etc. It’s not an advice forum. If someone asks for advice, different people might say a particular tool worked for them, but it isn’t a format where an expert is telling others what to do. The vast majority of support comes from peers who are in the trenches of healing. By peers, I mean that most members are child abuse survivors of some form.
The reality of Isurvive is that most (but not all) members move on once they no longer need the ongoing support. While it’s a wonderful thing for a member to put that chapter of his or her life behind, it results in there being few active members who can honestly say, “The healing process is survivable” because most (but not all) members are currently in more of a crisis, “healing is my life” chapter. There seem to be more “old timers” available for the other forums (physical, emotional, and sexual abuse) than the RA forum, which is my motivation for returning.
I hope we are getting closer to closing your circle. I really do want to understand what you are saying. I can be hard-headed, so I do appreciate your perserverance :0) We can work on my circle on Thursday. :0)
~ Faith
I am alternately called hardheaded and tenaciousness. If I agree I am tenacious if i do not I am hardheaded. Much like I have reasons where you have excuses.
I think it is all about the difference between sharing and teaching.
You state that healing is survivable. You have limited understanding. A multiple who does not dissociate very likely may not survive. They must risk dying if they are to survive.
Often a multiple that does not dissociate goes to a DID trauma expert is told that they need to see someone else. They may be labeled schizophrenic, borderline or if they are a teenager ODD.
A multiple who does not dissociate will never receive the correct DX. It disappeared when they added dissociation to MPD. MPD is rare dissociation is not. If you dissociate than the odds of you surviving increase as it is more easily understood.
I understand that you can not hear me as you are not a multiple that does not dissociate. It is when you teach and what you teach is incorrect for a multiple that does not dissociate that I feel the need to comment.
That being said the common thing that you and I do share is that processing the trauma and grieving from it is much of the answer for you and I. It is much different processing as a multiple who does not dissociate.
You may remember the issue that you had with a therapist that came on your bolg and I agreed with her. Your knowledge base of multiplicity is very narrow. There is a whole other world out there and it is ugly.
Just so you know if you are a multiple who does not dissociate the odds of you receiving help that is not harmful are not very good, I person who dissociates can do some research and find a therapist. It is still difficult not as difficult if you are a multiple who does not dissociate.
To be clear this is not only based on my own experience. i have a much broader knowledge base than you do. This knowledge base shows me I understand I do not understand.
I am being a tad disingenuous with my term multiple that does not dissociate. The reality is no multiples dissociate it is unrelated to multiplicity.
I am not sure that the time has not come that it is acknowledged that some trauma is worse than others.
i have read the title of your next post. I will comment not with a different perspective rather I have different experiences as a multiple.
All that being said it is possible that you are incorrect and do not dissociate and I am incorrect that I do.
This blog entry explores dissociation and how it does not relate to multiplicity.
http://dx-dissociative-identity-disorder.blogspot.com/2012/02/what-is-dissociation.html
Good subject for me. This is what I came to discover about me.
I have empathy when someone shares I can relate and discover things about me sometimes. When someone tells me about me it pisses me off unless they are correct which is rare. This happens in all areas of my life.
I do not like it when people explain the effects of trauma and make it inclusive which is exclusive for me. Not my fault it is typically is exclusive. (Spare me the explanation of why and how this is so as you do not know.)
The statements that use most survivors … or many of us tend to ….many be true just not often for me. I can not expect people to adjust to it is not true for me.
On a very deep level which does not negate the other levels it is about those I loved that did not survive and those I could have loved if they had. Mostly it is about that I could have loved them.
There is also the aspect that what is now being said about most survivors is not the same as what was said 5 years ago. The confidence in what is being said is consistent.
Pretty much I am more and more about enjoying I am different and not enjoying it because I am different. I can not really know why I am different in a meaningful way. This all disappears in person. It takes a very dull person to not know I am not different. Not may fault so many people are dull.
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